Morrowinds combat was dreadful.
If you liked the game then fine, but seriously, I had to mod the combat just to make the game playable.

I like how people make it sound like dice rolling is the only solution to RPGs. "Every other RPG is like that" while I agree that MOST are like that, it's a system that came from the 1970s and, to me, feels completely outdated. Why should I care about stats when all I want is the adventure? Let the computer worry about stats and let me worry about avoiding that dragon's fire breath or wooing that charming lady. Did Frodo had to bother with his stats? No... why should I? It was a system for Pen&Paper and now we're in 2010 and we've got the technology to make it happen.

If a toddler throws a metal toy car at your face, believe me it's going to hurt. It's not because that toddler's throwing skill was better than my dodging... it's because he/she threw it at POINT BLANK and the object is made of metal. This is probably my main gripe about Morrowind's combat system and it's perfectly illustrated in Veriax's video even though I'm sure that wasn't his intention (since he's very knowledgeable about the game, not to mention he loves the game). The problem isn't really the idea of dice-rolling, it's the perception of it and/or how Morrowind handles that dice-rolling. In a first-person view and you attack at point-blank... SOMETHING has to happen regardless of your skill or action. An animation? A sound? Text above the healthbar (you know, where the rest of the HUD is)... anything. The technology was there at the time... heck, it was there before Morrowind.

... and then you have the Magic / Weapon swapping hotkey thing… good god.

Forget that it's 8 years old, that's no excuse. That's the excuse you give a game when someone says the graphics are ugly from a technology standpoint. You either like it for what is it or you don't and I despised the combat when it first came out. It grew on me at some point so I can tolerate it now but it's still nowhere near "good".

My character should be more than a spreadsheet and, unfortunately, Morrowind's combat system emphasizes on it. I was fighting a guy on a bridge (in Morrowind) that I couldn't kill. People said it was because I wasn't supposed to fight it yet or that I was too low level. Are you kidding me? How am I supposed to tell? By looking at him? After many trials and errors, I ended up killing that svcker after hitting him twice. Why? My character wasn't any better, MY STRATEGY wasn't any different. It was just dumb luck. That situation happened more than once against various opponents. It's just how Morrowind handles the dice-rolling.

I did my time in P&P D&D and I loved it.

Someone mentioned World of Warcraft in this discussion. In WoW, a level 1 could actually HIT a level 60 and the odds of that happening are more frequent that hitting something with a minor skill in Morrowind. Heck, I remember a time where a level 12 could massacre a level 30 if equipped properly.

I'm not suggesting that Oblivion's combat is the best solution but at least in that game, I can play the game without constantly looking at my stats... in fact, I rarely do if at all. I can focus on what I DO as opposed to what my character is.

Please, let the dice-rolling go! Actually, I don't care if you cling to it (or if you enjoy Morrowind's combat, more power to you) but don't you dare make the assumption that those who hate dice-rolling are bloodthirsty, tea-bagging dim-witted fraggers (ok, I'm exaggerating but you guys sound like such snobs). Saying Oblivion is like a first person shooter merely shows your ignorance of either Oblivion and/or first person shooters.

And another thing, getting the proper character stats is a sign of player skill. It just requires less reflexes which is not a bad thing.

I think the video that the OP linked shows a good example of when Morrowind fails in it's combat system. You don't need to agree with it, just accept that this is what we hate about it.

Wow gix you finally found your way to the forums! Big fan of your let's plays. Anyway, I think that ultimately, the debate comes down to what you like. If you like one style, great, if you like another, just as great.

Oh, I lurk from time to time. I spend most of my time in the Oblivion general discussion boards, though.

I kinda skimmed over that, but I did a pretty decent job, I think, of explaining why you're wrong a couple of pages back.

The point is that if you don't want to play a game with a dice roll system, then don't play an RPG because that's what an RPG is.

If you completely overhaul the game around so that fighting and other skills are mini-games, then it isn't an RPG anymore.

They can make spin-off genres, like action-RPGs and still make RPGs, too. You failed when you went out and bought an RPG, expecting it to be an action RPG. Then, you failed again when you came on here and told us we're wrong for expecting an RPG to play like an RPG.

I think a major underlying problem with Morrowind's gameplay in general is overall abstruse nature of it. Die rolls are hidden from you, enemy levels are hidden from you, weaknesses and resistances are hidden from you. Hell, in the vanilla, unpatched game even enemy HP is hidden from you! For an RPG that relies so heavily on systems, too much information is kept from you and ultimately just leaves you befuddled as to why things happened or didn't. It's just most obvious in the combat.

Edit: To the post above me, I guess you have a valid point if you choose to define "Roll Playing Game" as "Dice Roll Game".

I don't.

No, that's the thing. Your idea (of most people's idea, actually) of an RPG is based on the method we used to RP back in the 70s and 80s... with pen&paper RPGs. That's like saying that you NEED Dwarves and Elves for something to be fantasy because that's how J. R. R. Tolkien did it and that's really where it all began. The real fantasy about Tolkien's work is about the little guy defeating a great evil against all odds.

I'm talking about what RPGs stand for, the mechanics under the hood don't matter if you can live the life of your own fictional character. Some of my best RP experiences didn't involve dice.

I don't hate dice-rolling (I might not have been that clear earlier), but you can be sure that I hate how Morrowind does it. I think MojoBox points out half of the problem.


Putting words in my mouth... That's [censored] great.

Did you go back an read what I said?

Honestly its two completely different play styles. What you dice role lovers are calling "RPG" is not an "RPG" its a more tactical and difficult way of game play more akin to pen and paper role playing games. I can understand your gripe about Oblivion's obvious fps inclined combat. My dream game would be somewhere in between. I love that If I swing my blade and I see it hit, that it actually does do just that. Though I also find level scaling and the fact that a semi decently equipped peasant could bring down one bad ass deadra if he has good enough clicking skill. I think that most people who dislike Morrowind's dice roll combat would agree with what I'm about to suggest. What we would really like would be if they could take this fps based combat and include a sort of dice rolling system in the background, and not just for damage but for chance to hit. Accept lets say that it would show said creature or enemy soldier visibly block or sidestep our attacks more often (Alot more often, think the "whiff, whiff, whiff, whiff" of Morrowind but inplace of just missing when you watch your blade connect, you actually see the enemy dodge, parry, and or block your attacks. As for magic, the higher level the character the better chance that your spell fizzles out, misses, or just sparks off of the enemy. So that a simple noobie could not bring down a veteran warrior or deadly creature. This is a senseless argument in my eyes because the best way of handling rpg combat hasn't really been used yet in my humble opinion. Though I do stand by my argument that "Dice Rolling" is not "RPG" if I'm role playing as a character I do not think of "Myself" as stats that need a dice to decide an outcome, I find that swinging my blade and having it not hit my enemy though it is not blocked, dodged, or parried but it just simply misses to be extremely un-immersive the exact opposite of role playing. Dice rolls work and are great for certain things but they do not define the gameplay of an rpg in that way.

Hope that came out sounding right, really tired...just wanted to toss out a few cents.

I agree on that. Oblivion just lacks the danger sensation that Morrowind has. And it's a pity.



I kinda disagree. It's pretty contradictory to say RPG's are about living another life, and having something so unrealistic as Morrowind's "dice" system. Even the less skilled and weakest character in Tamriel can strike a stab or a punch 90% or 95% of the time. One thing is to be unskilled, and another being blind

Guys, lets all just agree to disagree, live and let live, shake hands and be friends m'kay?

Eh, I think it's a worthy subject for debate, but yeah, no good reason to get too fired up over it.

I agree, I think this debate may have become a bit too heated.

I had no intention for this to be a debate, just a friendly funny video for people to give a hearty laugh at and move on. Maybe the thread title was misleading, but that's beside the point.

I'm not saying Morrowind is bad

I'm not saying Morrowind's Combat is bad

I'm not saying Mountain Dew shouldn't keep making new flavors

I'm not saying you're an idiot if you think Morrowind's Combat is bad/good.

I always boost up my Agility with those sweet gauntlets because I hated the "RPG style" cambat system. Really doesnt fit well in a first person perspective imo.

Morrowind is in first person too??? You learn something new everyday. I've always played Morrowind (and Oblivion) in third person.

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that your enemy has skill too. They aren't a bunch of idiots who hold the sword the wrong way around. They're hardened pros. If I swing a sword at them, and I'm an unskilled idiot, chances are, they'll be able to block it/move out of the way. Sure, more animations would have been nice, but that's not a problem with the actual combat system, it's a problem with Morrowind itself (though a minor one, imo). You can't really comment on how it's easy to hit someone until you've actually tried it youself. Assuming you're not a trained swordsman, go find someone skilled at fencing, and try to hit him with a sword. You will miss.

And debating is what we do here. This doesn't seem too heated to me. Then again, I spend a lot of time in the TES general warzone.

I actually switched Mount and Blade to first person when I got it because I'm so used to RPGing in first-person because of Morrowind.

I actually prefer the first person view, now and I find the third person view awkward.

Morrowind Code Patch has an alternate third person camera angle you might like.

I mean, I preferred third person until I started playing Morrowind in 2002 or whatever, and so I've been used to first person for years.

I have no desire to play in third person. I only go into third person to look at my character and take screenies.

As much as I like the mechanics of Morrowind's combat, I have to agree with this point. It would have made all the difference had Beth included some dodge and parry animations, or at the very least, sound effects (like Daggerfall), or some combination thereof. I remember the first time I had played Morrowind, one of the first creatures I fought was a mudcrab. I couldn't understand why my sword kept going through the damned thing, yet somehow I wasn't making any contact or doing any damage. Granted, it was my first time playing a 'real' RPG (had previously played Fable), so I knew next to nothing about character stats and dice rolls. Nonetheless, it was a bit off-putting. Luckily, I was in utter awe of the gameworld, so I stuck with it long enough to discover that it is one of the greatest games of all time. That said, I can understand how some people would get frustrated enough to put the game down forever. When I first played Oblivion, I thought the combat was engaging and felt it was a step in the right direction. That was until I hit level 15 or so. I began to see the repetitive nature of the combat system (block, hit, hit, block - repeat), and that the NPCs/creatures and loot were leveling along with my character, making battles more and more tedious as my character got 'better'. This rather destroyed my sense of progression, which ultimately made me put the game down. That was over a year ago, and I have yet to pick it up again. Between the two systems, I personallly prefer Morrowind's method, but something similar to what DeathnDecay mentioned would be best, IMHO.

EDIT:

I forgot to ask;

Gix, has anyone offered you a fishy stick? If not, let me http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq328/PaulSouthron/Fishy%20Sticks/fishystickcf7.jpg. And here's a little http://www.uesp.net/wiki/General:Fishy_Stick, in case you're curious. :foodndrink:

I finally latched onto Morrowind yesterday for the first time.

From a newbie perspective, I like that you can miss, but I was clearly cutting half of the things that killed me... I mean, you'd have to be pretty clumsy to miss. I think anybody could cut somebody with a blade no matter their skill, and anybody could definitely punch somebody no matter their skill. How much damage they do, and the kinds of moves that they use would go up by how experienced they are. It's still fun to fight, it's just kind-of awkward sometimes.

Since somebody mentioned level-scaling, I'll put in my two cents about that. The level-scaling should just be removed. There was a drastic difference between using an Iron Dagger, and a Wakizashi, and honestly there's more of a sense of accomplishment when you go "I killed something! And Armor actually made a difference!" In Oblivion you can kill anything quite easily, I was wearing clothes roleplaying as a beggar and I killed 3 wolves with my fists at level 1, with no hand-to-hand skill. And don't take me for somebody who takes sides, I have over 2,000 saves for Oblivion, and I make mods for it and play it all the time. I love that game, but I can definately see what people were talking about.

If coupled with animations, it will take out the aspect of any player skill whatsoever, imho. I think that concerning Combat, it should just be completely redone to be better. They should make fighting a fun challenge while still leaving most of how well they fare in the hands of the player's skill.