I am quite aware that usually this request goes the other way: there are tons of people that vastly prefer the action-adventure esque combat in Oblivion, but I've found that Morrowind's combat is much more immersive and challenging. In contrast, Oblivion's system is easy and I've found that my character's skill matters much less than do my reflexes.

So are there any mods for Oblivion that stop me from "always hitting", mods that make my skill with the weapon and my agility stat play a roll in how often I miss and hit?

Feel free to suggest any other mods that make OB play more like MW, though of course I am chiefly asking about combat solutions. I have always played this game with open cities, fast travel disabled, and CTN.

I don't know about such a mod, but I'd like to try to give you another perspective:

I completely disagree that the character's skill matters much less than the player's my reflexes. That is a misconception which came to live because in vanilla Oblivion, all the enemies you meet are close to your character in skill - due to Oblivion's level scaling, like it or not.

So of course, when the two combatants always have about the same stats, the only difference is how you play it - your reflexes.


But if you remove Oblivion's level scaling and instead use a mod (OOO) which makes the level scaling work more like Morrowind, you will meet enemies that are way above or way below your character, and you will find that your reflexes matters much less. With OOO, you will meet enemies that you just have no chance of surviving regardless of your reflexes. The only way to beat them is to build up your character's skills.

Go meet a frost giant (IIRC) while level 5 or less, and come back and tell me you beat it due to your good reflexes, and you may have a point

Also, your stats do play a role - you may always hit, but the damage you deal will be next to nothing for opponents much higher level than you. It's not like you couldn't dodge in Morrowind, either.

One thing no one ever mentioned when discussing OB vs MW combat was the fact that MW was playerskill dependent aswell... you couldn't swing/shoot your weapon at any direction and really assume you'd hit your opponent just because you were a master in the according proficiency. You had to aim, too. That's why some people find it kind of broken. You had to aim by yourself but could still miss whereas in other hit/miss system RPGs the game does all the aiming.

Just my 2c

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=31120 ---- http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=33601
:hubbahubba:

I'd be all over modded morrowind if not for the lame combat that is half implemented. for Oblivion though square peg round hole - bocking for instance - even if using hit chance mod above - in Morrowind blocking was not something you could not do as the player, so how do you undo Oblivion blocking?

Though Morrowind has that story immersion - I recently watched a teenager get a used xbox and Morrwind for it. I'd seen him play shooting games. It was hilarious to see him get immediately lost after character creation and get owned by a rat. No quest pointers natively - it took about 15 minutes before he said he could not wait to sell it.

Made me want to play it.

Heh, for me it's the non-existing NPC AI and the lack of any faction relationships between the NPCs that is my biggest turn-off about Morrowind. The idea that the player character is responsible for any innocent NPC's death by another NPC and the following global bounty drove me insane; so insane that I even made a mod to (try to) stop any NPCs from casting area effect spells. Radiant AI is not perfect, but still vastly superior to MW's system.
But i sure miss the much more "real" swamps and snow and the MQ that is not forced upon you.

I reckon Morrowind's combat would make more sense if you could see how your attack failed. The whole "wave your swords around until a hit connects" system makes little sense, even if it is based on skills and attributes.

Attack failure chance mod above shows a hit still, eliminating that problem. I have to say it is amazing compared to vanilla Oblivion and Morrowind.

I installed and tried a cave with it, I re-ran the cave 5 times.

Normally you would do the same exact combat. Beating every goblin the same way. With this mod, everything varies. You won't have the same combat experience twice. Just try it, you will see the difference.

Some despise dice-rolls but it simulates critical hits, critical failures, the variation between enemies. It might be called a false sense but I don't agree. The chaos, randomization was the thing causing this variations in the first place. So in this system we use a very cheap but effective system calculating this variation on the hit moment. It isn't any different in the end.

If all things scale to your level, no variation.
If you fix this, this time every enemy type will show no variation in itself.
You can go create unique enemies for every creature but still you can use this dice-rolls to achieve further level of variation.

I can say the combat no longer feels flat and even with level scaling on, I can call it challenging.

The fact that it only applies to the PC seems like it would be quite a turn-off - after all, why should enemies get an advantage over you? The combat ends up being random - but in the favour of your enemies, instead of being distributed evenly like most good random systems.

I don't remember what the name of the mod was that I saw but not long ago I saw a thread here for a released mod that makes blocking chance based.

I'm going to endorse Enzo Dragon's view here. Despite all I try, I still think the game rewards me for using weapons my character is useless at. With vanilla leveling, with one more skill to go for a level, walk round the lake, harassing mudcrabs. Get them to hit me, (so increasing my light and heavy armour and restoration) and then punch it to death. Repeat till bored.

I would love a system that made Oblivions combat like Morrowinds. As it stands, the system is neither a console action system nor an RPG system. A horrible hybrid that certainly doesn't satisfy me. Morrwind's was by no means perfect but it was much better in my view.

You know, it's interesting. I go on the Morrowind mod forums and I see people asking for Oblivion-esque combat, and now I go on here and see people asking for Morrowind-esque combat. It's almost like Oblivion fans want the complete opposite of what Morrowind fans want. :shrug:

As for what combat system I prefer, I think I'm more of a fan of Oblivion's. Yes Oblivion's usually amounts more to skills not meaning as much as they used to, but Morrowind's combat almost killed the game for me. Block was basically useless unless you had a shield and a decent block skill, and it was very hard to train because blocks always happened at random. And the hit and miss system just doesn't fit first person combat, as it doesn't make sense to visually hit someone in the arm, and yet it misses. Combat systems like that are meant more for 3rd person RPG's like Diablo.

I prefer a combat system in a first person RPG where the player has more of an input in what happens, rather than random chance being the only factor that decides what happens. The only thing I don't like about Oblivion's system is that there is no variation in damage per-strike. It's always a certain amount and never variable (say 12 instead of 3-12). That's one thing I liked about Morrowind's system. And if that was somehow implemented in Oblivion's combat system, I don't think I'd ever get bored of combat.

If you want something where you have a chance to miss, but still maintains Oblivion's system, then try out Deadly Reflex. Enemies try to avoid your attacks and it visually indicates how they do so, instead of them just standing there and all you do is listen for sound cues. I also recommend one of the timed block modules for it, as it really makes combat more intense and makes blocking more fun that just "hold down RMB until enemy strikes, let go and strike back."

They both have the right to do so. Because Morrowind's combat needs physics and Oblivion's combat needs some enrichment and both need animations.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_Complete_Damage_Formula

I can't see agility. I can't even see luck. Luck is a constant bonus in this system. Where is the randomization? I can only see fatigue which can vary but Oblivion's fatigue is also very forgiving.

I'm not saying total randomness should decide because the primary target is skills must show. A secondary target would be making combat not flat but dynamic. Third, giving the player some of the control, mostly fun side of things.

I would like to see "manual block" option instead of "always use best attack" in Morrowind for example because I think it is good to have both options. But Oblivion's auto launched power attacks make me feel my control is taken away, I would prefer to be in control at my timing at least. And then some more on accuracy, at least up-down, maybe head, arms, legs... Nothing fun was in my control. Taking out agility and luck and with only showing hits with the addition of physics wasn't satisfiable, it is total laziness. I think those frustrated ones felt like a just found water in the desert situation. I tell you it was not quality water.

We were expecting more from Oblivion. Morrowind's system is not perfect, I even say "What combat?". But it has a feeling and mind you when you get your skills high enough to pass that threshold, which missings mostly disappear, it becomes more Oblivion like, except there is still some variation.


Morrowind's system wasn't based on random chance, skills and attributes still mattered. It would be nice to have randomization directly inside the physics engine but still random chance is accessible at creating unique outcomes. We only have mouse button. If we were using, Wiimote or Move, our movements would be, maybe, enough to create a unique outcome.

Even simulations use random numbers, we shouldn't be calling it unrealistic just like that. If you want to use a deterministic algorithm, I suggest a formula 2 pages long at least.

Vtastek, that's a well thought out post, much of which I think has merit. However I've got to take issue with "Morrowind's combat needs physics".

Sorry it already has much more realistic 'physics' than Oblivion. It might be that the physics engine in Oblivion could have been implemented in a subtle, realistic manner (no slow motion falling dead bodies, no coins flying miles, no boxing gloves on my characters hands) but it wasn't.
Sorry, but Morrowind's no physics engine produces far more believable results for me. One of the changes I'd love to see in Oblivion is the entire physics engine be disabled or at least drastically muted.

You raise very good points, some of which I agree with.

While I like how combat is implemented in Oblivion, I'm not a fan of the formula used in it either. I believe it could undergo some tweaking, but not to the point where there's a hit and miss system that results in you missing when you clearly hit them. The only reason you should miss your swings, shots, etc is if the enemy moves out of the way and avoids them. It makes more sense that way. I just wish that the NPC's in Oblivion actually used tactics rather than just kamikaze rush you. That's one of the main reasons why the combat gets dry at times. Enemies are way to predictable.

Agreed with the manual block option for Morrowind. As for the power attacks, I'm divided. I like the fact that it lessens the control of your character to some degree, because it gives you a slight consequence to using that power attack. You can use that power attack, but do you really want to chance overshooting it and give the enemy ample opportunity to strike you down? Of course, that would be well implemented if the enemies in Oblivion weren't so predictable. One of the reasons I'm using Deadly Reflex right now. It adds a good amount of challenge and unpredictability to the combat system.

As for the Morrowind system, I agree that it's not fully based on random chance. I've gotten my character to 100 blade before and it felt good to finally stop missing every so often. That's another thing I liked about Morrowind's system. Skills mattered more. I just wish the way the combat itself was implemented wasn't so static. I mean, it was quite boring at first just sitting in front of an enemy randomly clicking at them until you heard the hit sound cue. With Oblivion, combat started out quite interesting, but then slowly became just another spamfest.

As for motion controls in TES, that's one thing I do not want to see. :shakehead:

I do wish there was a decent hybrid system that combined the good aspects of Morrowind and Oblvion's combat system, but I sadly don't see that happening anytime soon. Who knows, maybe we'll get something like that in TES V, and everyone will be happy.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this. I'd rather keep the physics system, as I'd prefer my arrows and projectiles to be affected by gravity rather than just fly in a straight line like they're enchanted with levitation all the time. As for slow motion falling dead bodies, I'm not a fan of that as well, which is why I got myself a physics mod to fix that. I've never seen coins flying miles, and weren't the stances for Morrowind and Oblivion's unarmed system sort of the same? That's more of an animation issue rather than a physics issue. And as Beth aren't all that great with animations, I don't see problems concerning it being fixed anytime in the future (unless their new engine is basically idTech with open world capabilities).

If Morrowind had a physics mod, I'd download it in a heartbeat. And I'm sure most every other fan of Morrowind would be doing the same.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1025807-marksman-mod-please/ - about oh every 6 months or so.

Morrowind players who cannot handle the visceral part of Oblivion and Oblivion players who cannot handle the 'rpg style of combat' in Morrowind.

I think it is without doubt that what many who covet Morrowind's combat being all rpg (purely stat based) is mistaken about its existence. I think it was simply the developers either not being able to implement what we see in Oblivion or just being lazy. Further what we see in Oblivion may not be the final product either - my bet is that the next TES game will be more toward what Oblivion is if not more so. That is the trend and it makes sense. This is not Pen and Paper - if is a video game and as such the challenge is to combine the experience of player skill and character development. Minimizing player skill has proven to be a frustrating experience for most games and game players while increasing player skill has been what video games have been about since day one and yet is apparently very frustrating for the Morrowind community.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1025807-marksman-mod-please/page__view__findpost__p__15712303 with Deathborn above that player skill does matter in Morrowind - you decide what weapon to use, when to swing, etc. Even NWN had it so that the character determined how often you could attack.

Mods can fix a lot in Oblivion to strike the balance between player and character skill, but this cannot be said for Morrowind.

Hmm... personally I much prefer the Oblivion system, but I can understand both sides of the arguement here. All it really comes down to is wether you prefer control or skill dependancy, and thus whether you prefer the game to be more like a standard RPG or more like a standard adventure game. It's just a shame it's an area so difficult to change with mods, or at least in Morrowind. If there were mods that swapped each games combat system everybody will be happy but until then we'll just have to keep arguing.

I like:

Oblivion combat system
Your skill and reflexes influences the end of a battle. Even if my PG is unskilled with the weapons, if my sword hits the enemy, he can't dodge my attack because of a "miracle". I've seen my sword cutting his flesh!

Morrowind spell system
You can try to cast a spell anytime, but only an expert mage succeeds to cast the most powerful spells.
Every cast increase the experience (In Oblivion: every hit increase the experience. REALLY BAD SYSTEM).

To get MW's combat system into Oblivion all you'd need to do is turn the enemy AI off. No dodging, no blocking, no running around. Then you would stand in front of an immobile enemy and click the left mouse button as fast as possible while he would bash at you as fast as he can as well. The only difference left would be that in Morrowind you would do 30 damage per hit but 2 of 3 attacks would magically miss the target while in Oblivion you would do 10 damage per hit and all attacks would hit the target. I know this sounds a bit like I'm joking, but when you think about it it is the truth.

Of course there is nothing wrong with that if you like it that way. It's a singleplayer game. But personally I prefer to get appropriate feedback for my actions in a first person real-time game.



I find it a bit irritating how much hate unreflective nostalgia can produce. Apart from a few exceptions the people posting in that thread remind me of old grumpy men who curse computers because they are used to typewriters (which are so much better of course).

Of COURSE typewriters were better. Never had my IBM selectric crash on me....... *grumble grumble grumble*

From my observation, most folks that played Morrowind first, prefer that combat system, those that played Oblivion first, preferred THAT combat system. Keep in mind the qualifier "most". Sure, there are exceptions to the rule. Personally, I preferred the MW combat.... as I have a hard time justifying my low level character getting a solid hit with a sharp pointy stick, and only doing one or two points of damage...... I can do that to myself by ACCIDENT with same said sharp pointy stick. The problem (from my experience) was, in MW, your sword could pass right thru your target, yet, would do no damage..... there weren't animations to show a clean miss, or, the target dodging out of the way of your blow, and folks didn't like that. So, we have Oblivion..... where if the target is even within the vicinity of your crosshairs, you 'hit'....... Damage is just (severely) modified by your level. Level scaling was another thing that was "over done" in oblivion...... but, that is an entirely separate rant.

But didn't enemies flinch when you actually hit them in Morrowind? Maybe I'm just imagining that. It annoys me to no end that enemies have zero reaction outside of sound effects when you get a clean hit on them.

I'm pretty sure you can stagger people in Oblivion...

Anyway, I played Morrowind first, and adore that game. I think very poorly of Oblivion in general, for all the ways it failed to live up to Morrowind.

The changes to the combat system are not one one of my gripes.

Yeah, I agree that the combat was one of the only things they did right with Oblivion. That and the Facegen, even though the base face is ugly as the Devil's anus, and a lot of sliders are linked in arbitrary ways, even between categories.

The staggering on hit though is rare. All other times the target just grunts while standing perfectly still.
Luckily though, a mod could very easily fix the no-reaction thing if someone were to make a few short hit-react animations to use.

Well, that certainly is flattering.

I believe this is the first time that I've heard something positive about the mod. Usually people just complained either about something they thought was missing, or about the general idea of even doing this, since it supposedly makes Oblivion worse.

The mod isn't perfect, but I do prefer it to Oblivion's and Morrowind's system too, because it is a perfect symbiosis; you don't get weapons going through an enemy without doing damage, but you also don't do the same amount of damage each time. Even if your weapon skill is 0, you'll still hit the enemy each time, you just won't do any remarkable damage. And, on average, there's absolutely no difference in damage to vanilla Oblivion, so it's neither cheating nor does it add any extra difficulty overall. (Although single combats may become more difficult simply due to player's bad luck.)