I can only hope Todds indications about Skyrim are right, Skyrim is where I wanted Oblivion to take place, if they screw Skyrim like they did Oblivion my faith in the Todd and the other developers will have irreparable damage.

Well, their focus with Oblivion was classic medieval fantasy- which is a bit dull when compared to TES lore in general. Basic fantasy doesn't really stand up to all that TES lore encompasses, so it may not be the best to facilitate it.

Todd has state that the new focus for Skyrim is some kind of epic fantasy theme, where everything happening around the character is 'epic'- which I'm guessing means that you get involved in extreme circumstances on a moderate basis.
That was also the basis for the appearance of towns and locations.

As far as a conceptual focus goes- that does sound like a better concept to base the game around than classic medieval fantasy. Trying to mesh to medieval fantasy would be like trying to fit a mold that in all actuality isn't incredibly colorful. So lets hope they don't return to that in the future.

And that Advancement only went so far in Graphics/Combat/Time/Storyline(chronological not quality)/Sidequest take away those AI packages which are just Glorified Static have no overlying impact on the world other than asthetics JUST like other games that do -Schedules- Schedules and the game is as static as Morrowind is. their are no conflicts nothing happening without your intervention, no one with goals that they are carrying out, just -Schedules-

Well, it is still more interesting than static and standing still, with perhaps a bit of pacing!

In Skyrim I saw that there were more npc's that are doing jobs, etc- the blacksmith sharpening an axe, the lumbermill man carrying a large cut of wood from a stack to the saw area (I think thats what it was)- and it looked good! Npc's were actually visibly interacting with static objects and even moving them around, which is a huge improvement. Plus their actions- and yours- with these activities effect the economy and health of whatever town they are a part of, which gives it more meaning.

Oh I've no say on what Skyrims doing in that department. Its looking good though, of course thats what I said for Oblivion.

The only reason that Morrowind is better than Oblivion, IMO, is the politics. Most of Oblivion's main plots were bland and black/white. Morrowind has politics in every area of the game, whether it be religion, government, factions, etc... In OB, you didn't see any Nine vs. Daedra stuff, or Empire vs. locals (which in this case is understandable, because it's in Cyrodiil, but I still missed it), nor did you see two joinable factions fighting each other. This is where Ob missed out.

That said, I still play both games to date and enjoy them about equally.

This made me giggle!

Take away schedules from Oblivion and it has no schedules! See how awful this game is!? The characters are actually completely static, just like in Morrowind, but it's all hidden behind schedules!

The schedules add a considerable amount of life into the world, that appeal to a broad TES audience, one that I fall into. The audience that enjoys watching the world unfurl around them. Whether that's gawking at a waterfall in the wild, or admiring the sense of life in a town as NPCs wake up in the morning, have their breakfast, go to work tilling the fields or managing their stores, breaking for lunch, locking up their shops in the evenings, chilling out at the taverns in the evenings. Some of the NPCs are really unique. Some of the married women cheat on their husbands, sleeping around with various other men. There's a pretty solid drug ring in Cheydinhal, where one of the Orcs there travels to the Imperial City once a week to a drop-off point, exchanging gold for skooma, returns to Cheydinhal for a while, then takes that skooma to a Dunmer camp in the Valus Mountains in exchange for more gold, which gets handed to the crime boss back in Cheydinhal (after he keeps his cut).

You're right of course, without schedules the NPCs wouldn't have schedules. But that's one of the funniest comments I've ever seen

Without weapons, physical combat would be awful. What a scam the the devs hide behind weapons for physical combat! OMG Oblivion was such a terrible game for using stupid weapons!

:rofl:

This is where roleplay comes in.

Yes, the NPC's are static, but I still enjoyed making up lives for my favorite ones.
And at least I knew where to find them.
Ironically Oblivion seems less alive to me.
The NPC's all just have one line and mill about mostly without ever doing anything interesting.
Sure, the vast majority of text was shared by NPC's in Morrowind, but I chose with who I wanted to talk about what.
I learned a lot of Morrowind lore from Andre Maul in his tower a lot of playthroughs. I just liked him. Brought a bottle of flin or brandy for us to share.
Couldnt really roleplay a conversation in Oblivion as they would wander off or make random comments about mudcrabs.

I prefer the world of Morrowind over the world of Oblivion.
The potential of something awesome or just interesting just around the corner, causing you to explore every nook and cranny.

I prefer the mechanics of Morrowind. The sheer freedom to do with the gameworld as I wish.
From building a pillow fort to permanently making peaceful the outcast ashlanders by calming them then getting their disposition to 100, to jumping from Seyda Neen to Sheogorath.
The artifical caps and limits of Oblivion seem less interesting to me.

You have your opinion, I have mine

We will see how it goes in Skyrim.
The information we have about the depth and lives of NPC's looks promising, with companions, relationships, radiant AI.

Morrowind had culture and politics, which made it seem alive. Despite the fact that Oblivion's NPCs moved, their was no culture or society to speak off, which made it feel like nothing was happening.

That's an opinion I can completely understand, and a very justified one. Morrowind's strength in my opinion was the visual presentation of culture and politics. In Oblivion, they constantly brought up the Nibenese vs Colovian rivalries in dialogue, but there was never a real sense of it in the visual game world. Skyrim sounds like it's on the right track in this aspect, thank the Nines.

For those of you saying Morrowind's static NPCs were better because they left more opportunity for role-playing, and THAT made it a better game, I highly recommend a game called Zork. By your standards of what makes a game great, it should be just about the closest thing to perfection you could ever dream of.

If we reclassified Morrowind as an equal parts cultural simulation/rpg hybrid, would it make Oblivion enthusiasts understand why Morrowind enthusiasts aren't too impressed with Oblivion?

Neurologists/Psychologists/Sociologists should study the MW vs OB debate. One side sees gaming nirvana in one game and all that is wrong with the world in another. "Everyone's different" argument is ridiculously lazy, something very interesting is being manifested.

This. In Oblivion you can join the major guilds and do whatever you want. You could do it all in one play through in a rather bland world. The radiant AI was cool, but definitely didn't live up to my expectations. The level scaling also killed it for me. I hit a certain level and all of a sudden these random bandits have a ton of glass armor? Yeah, ok. There was never anything to get too excited about because everything was scaled to you.

In Morrowind you were basically forced to create three separate characters if you wanted to do everything. The major houses were spread throughout the various regions of the game, which allowed the player to become immersed and understand the ideologies throughout those regions. Slaves were allowed in the Telvanni lands, but the Hlaalu lands were more similar to today's society. Every settlement was different from the next. One minute I would be talking to a floating god, while the next I would be getting asked to remove my clothes for a promotion. Morrowind was so unpredictable and there was always something around the corner. You could tell the developers had a great time creating that world.

On that note, I can't wait to play Skyrim. I won't be expecting another MW and my expectations will be much lower than they were when Oblivion came out. I had a great time with OB, but I don't think I can every be truly fair to that game just because of what I was expecting.

Your preference cannot be wrong. However, I will disagree with you. Morrowind lacked nothing for the time period it was released in. Download some mods and you will probably like it more. I love it just the way it is. I also feel like I'm going to love Skyrim. I liked Oblivion very much. Maybe I wish it was a little more difficult, had no level scaling, and had more lore surrounding everything, but I still appreciate the work Bethesda did. Just like I'm going to appreciate Skyrim.

When? That's good news. As early as the GI coverage, you'd hear about NPCs leading you to the road or giving you directions, but I always assumed the compass and map markers were locked on.

Not everyone likes the same movies, either. My question is, why should the RPG aspects be ham-strung? If the numbers and stats and menus bother a player so much, don't play RPGs. All this, "your stats are governed by the computer, now" talk is too funny! The purpose of an RPG is to bring as many stats under the thumb of the player as possible. With care to make the game playable, yes, but not playable for people who prefer other genres.

No, I don't believe the audience for TES games needs to be any broader. If stats and leveling turn a player off, go to another game. Don't clout the forums with illegitimate complaints about the *hurka durka* numbers and "difficult" menus. In the Skyrim forum, most posters only know they want GTA4 (without the college humor) under a medieval veneer. And let me be even more frank, a lot of people who "love" TES should be playing that game, or Mass Effect 2, instead of wasting our developers' time with their crap.

But I'm thankful the developers also listen to their storytellers and mythopoets. If I get less RPG with my Skyrim, I can always treat it like a less brainy, adventure game.

Pete said you could lower the opacity of the HUD to 0. That's all. We don't know if you can adjust individual elements, though, so as far as we know, removing the compass revomes your attribute bars, as well.

The "life" in the two games works on two totally different levels.

In Oblivion, you've got NPCs that got to and from work, have families that some actually talk about, and do things that makes them function as individuals. The game did this very well, and made it very "lively" on the surface, aside from some issues with repetitive dialog and NPCs changing voice in mid-conversation. The society as a whole, on the other hand, is an empty shell: there are no signs of conflict between the "approved" factions, or between the very different ends of the province (the Colovian Highlands are described as pretty much what Oblivion portrayed; the Niben basin, including around the Imperial City island, was described as "jungle"). There was no "politics" (despite the looming power vacuum that should have drawn potential tyrants from every nook and cranny), other than a few petty antics of some nobles about personal matters. The various religious cults, and the assorted surrounding cultures' native religions, really didn't do anything, or even mention that they were TRYING to do anything. The empty and overgrown farms, the ruined forts, and the lack of functional mines that produced anything other than Goblins made it seem as if the Empire had already fallen a generation or more ago, and never recovered, instead of being just past its peak and starting the long slide into decay. In short, Oblivion's "society" was all but non-existent, despite all of the advances in AI scheduling and voice-acting.

Morrowind's NPCs stood around or paced a short distance back and forth. They repeated mostly the same lines as the other 30 NPCs in the vicinity, BUT there were occasional topics that unlocked as you did things or inquired elsewhere about related matters. Those differences grew as the game went on, and some NPCs had a LOT to say by the end of the game, but had to be "unlocked" gradually. You "got to know them" over time, whereas OB's NPCs had a lot more to say as individuals "up front", and then were "tapped out". The society in Morrowind was wracked by conflict between the 3 Great Houses, bitter rivalries between the local Camonna Tong and the foreign Thieves Guild, local Telvanni wizards and the Mages Guild, the local Tribunal followers and the foreign Divine cults (and both of them against the older Ashlander religion), along with several divisive issues within several of those factions. The deeper you dug, the more there was to the story, and you quickly discovered that much of what you thought you knew was only a distortion of the facts. The NPCs were mostly shallow (with notable exceptions, as in OB), but collectively formed a detailed picture of a society in turmoil from very believable causes, and with visible in-game results.

In Morrowind, the more I looked, the better it got. After 5-6 years, I'm still occasionally playing it (thanks to mods that have extended its life). Oblivion looked specatcular, and drew me in completely at the start, but then failed to hold my attention, because there was nothing more to it. The longer I played, the more I felt the lack. The overhaul mods for OB (such as OOO and MMM) partially "mask" the underlying issue (and make it slightly more like Morrowind in several ways), but can't cure it.

To me, Oblivion was a great GAME, and nothing more; beat it and then move on. Morrowind was a strange new world to call home. I am counting on the next game in the series fixing the problem, and hope that Skyrim will bring back the feeling of a functional world that I found in Morrowind, but could not find in Oblivion.

Well, you can turn it off to an extent. I looked back into it- Pete and Todd do say that you can turn it off- You will be able to turn down the opacity of your overhead HUD which would remove the compass, health, magicka, stamina, etc all from view so that there is nothing impeding your view of the game world if you want.

But I'm not certain if it means it disables it all at once or if you can hide different parts and see others.

Not sure exactly where I saw Todd mention it anymore, but I was able to find an article where Pete Hines confirmed this:

http://www.gamepur.com/news/5375-skyrim-new-details-features-new-speechcraft-system-allows-players-hide-ui.html

"According to Hines, gamers will be able to disable HUD display completley, all they need to do is set the opacity of the overlay to zero. This will allow players to hide compass; health, stamina and magicka bars; and crosshairs, and play Skyrim without any sorts of visual impediments.
"

All of that is nice, but the cross hair actually gives our eyes something to focus on. Unlike the compass, it serves a real purpose. I hope the .ini can fix this.

Maybe the release version will have multiple sliders.

Being able to hide the display is not the same as not needing the display. If the quests are written to require the HUD, with no coherent directions or journal entry to give you the information that the HUD is supposed to represent, then disabling the display doesn't solve the main problem. The FACT of OB's compass was only half of the reason for the complaints; the total absence of any other "in-game" alternative was the other half. The ability to gain an unobstructed display is a trivial detail in comparison, but seems to be the "solution" being offered.

To compare, MW gave you a set of (text) directions in conversation (granted, some of them could have been better), and some of the NPCs even marked a location on your world map. From there, it was up to you to find the exact location within that general area. The search was a part of the quest, and there were usually plenty of opponents, dungeons, and other things nearby to keep you "entertained" while searching. Oblivion gave you a brief verbal description such as "It's West of here", not bothering to tell you that it was over half-way across the map in a north-westerly direction; the game relied entirely on the compass to point the way. There was NO way you would find the location in a week of searching based on many of the sorry directions given.

Being able to hide the compass doesn't do a bit of good if the quest is still written to require its use. Hopefully, Skyrim will do better at this than Oblivion did. We won't know until it's released.

My first ES game was Morrowind. I did have lots of expectations which led to diasappointment with Oblivion. I've decided this time to just play the game, and let Skyrim stand on its own merit. I don't want each game to be a copy of the last with different graphics. I want each one to be an immersive experience, and Oblivion was.

If you think that the new Bethesda games are sub-par, that's fine - we are each entitled to our own opinion. You have the choice not to play the game, but seek out others you do enjoy. Bethesda is a business and can't design games to meet the expectations of a small group, or of every fan. I am convinced they are doing good work, and I'm happy to see things change and evolve.

Like I said, as early as the GI reveal, we were told NPCs gave directions. An example of a woman leading us to the village outskirts, then directing us to the cave comes to mind. It was one of those RAI, Timmy-fell-down-the-well quests.

this ^ i agree with completely

yes your wrong,
everything you said in your comment was wrong
Morrowind was and is the only game i ever felt had life in it.
i still play morrowind to this day ... when morrowind released it was the best game on the market ... in my opinion it is still the best game on the market ... the reason you have such a negative opinion is because you never spent 2000+ hours in it like i and many others have

try reading this thread to get a better view of my reasoning
Here -----> http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1242068-skyrim-the-end-of-the-elder-scrolls-as-we-know-it/page__gopid__18843442#entry18843442

Funnily enough, I did the same thing, and honestly, I do like MW more than OB. There are gameplay mechanics that work SO much better in OB, that is a given. But OB also stuffed up in many ways - Morrowind quests arguably had too steep a learning curve. Oblivion had no learning curve whatsoever - it held your hand far too much throughout the entire game. There are only a few quests in the game that do not use map markers at all, and most of the quests need the map marker (or an insanely lucky player) to complete.

Personally, the reason that for me, MW is so much better is that in OB the game is made equally as difficult for the developers as it is for you, me, my kid sister, your grandmother, Joe Bloggs and my trained monkey. Don't get me wrong - the accessibility was awesome. Essentially, however, the last quests in the game were just as easy to complete as the first ones.

In my opinion, you are wrong to a certain extent. Oblivion looked prettier. It certainly played more intuitively. It was easier to get into. But well, honestly a trained monkey could have completed Oblivion just as quickly as the devs did. .

Thanks! You have dispelled a lot of my fears about Skyrim with that comment . Hopefully we can turn off icons, instead of the entire HUD. And hopefully the game is designed with the iconless player in mind, but that is definitely a big plus for me

I would argue that Oblivion is more static than Morrowind. In Morrowind, if you steal someones sword, they don't ever leave the room, so how would they get a new one? In Oblivion, if you steal someones sword they will walk past the blacksmiths everyday for the rest of the game, and then spend 5 hours staring at a training dummy. I'm not going to mention the level scaling.

and that is the point. The game didn't let you win just because you were playing it. It made you earn the right to beat it. Oblivion practically printed you off a walk-through and read it aloud to you.

I'm not going to lie - I have a deep seated fear that in Skyrim, I will be able to load up the game for the first time and make a decent attempt at finishing the main quest in under 5 hours with that "walkthrough support" given by the compass markers.