Another one of these threads. Ah well, I haven't actually weighed in on one yet, so here goes....

I finally got a laptop that could run Oblivion a year ago, and I've played it off and on since. After seeing the complaints here following the game's release, my expectations were low, and the game was a pleasant surprise. The interface was useable after a few days, the simplified armor wasn't all that limiting, and the writing was far better than I dared to hope, with more lore references than I had come to expect from the forum critics.

I know that many people love the graphical improvements and the combat engine in Oblivion, but if there is any one feature that stands out to me as a huge improvement over Morrowind, it would have to be the creature animations. I hate the generic nature of the Cyrodiil wildlife, but I love that they actually have different attack styles and tactics. In Morrowind, they all just run at you and strike (and Scribs paralyze you). In Oblivion, some enemies kick, some jump, some dodge or even disappear. It makes encounters much more interesting.

That said, I've found myself playing Oblivion less and less. The reason is that, even with mods like TIE, Oblivion feels generic. There is nothing in the scenery that takes my breath away, nothing in the city designs that make me love or hate the place or imagine any life there beyond what I see. The colors of the rooftops change, and that's about it. The general attitude of every city feels the same, with the possible exception of Bravil, which is a corrupt slum. The leaves on the trees and the colors of the grass change a bit as you travel, but again, that's pretty much it. Everywhere you go, you see the same types of ruins (that appear to serve no original purpose) and the same types of wildlife and people wearing the same types of clothing. It's pretty, but in only a few visits, I feel like I've seen everything there is to see.

I will continue to play Oblivion, because I need to finish my character's story, but I will continue to replay Morrowind because I can always come up with new stories there. My imagination is enlivened by the uniqueness of the House cultures and Ashlander tribes, the different environments and the wildness of the ruins that come from lost civilizations.

From what I see so far of Skyrim, my hopes are raised. It will not be a Morrowind clone, and it would be bad if it were. However, if the holds have different personalities, different value systems, and different architecture (as hinted in the limited screenshots thus far); if the creatures behave with at least as much uniqueness as they did in Oblivion; if the landscape is as varied as the teaser map would indicate; and if the ruins have a history to them as the stories of the dragon temples seem to hint at, then I expect that I will be satisfied. That type of depth is what I love about this series, the ability to see what's on my screen and use that to stimulate my imagination until an entire world of politics, religion, history, and ecology unfolds in front of me. Anything beyond that - graphical power, quests, etc - is important, but it's more or less icing on the cake.

Poster before you is incapable of being nostalgic for Morrowind.

It's always sad when people just hurriedly reach for that Nostalgia button

no it would turn skyrim into the 7th circle of hell

to me it was never i like MW more than OB because I think OB was worse, OB was better, but not as much as the time they put into it should have reflected. my complaint is that they seem to be focusing on making each game as far away from being "sequels" so they diliberatly change up beloved features of the game just to make it feel like its own, thats not necessary. improve those similar features and people will have no reason to like the previous game more, while adding new features. thats alot to ask, but the TES is supposed to be known for taking on more than what they necessarily had to do. its called quality at the slight cost of profit.

This might be a factor, but the most important factor is what we want from a game, some might prefer a much easier mainstreamed action packed sort of RPG which is Oblivion, but some like me, who have played all the old RPGs from the time that they where text based blobs and lots and lots of numbers on screen, might like a deeper, more involving RPG that would actually require you to sweat and use those gray cells quite a lot, to be able to solve hard situations or find an item that is hidden somewhere in the world or dungeon.

For me, the excessive hand holding and nose leading was a game killer, in Oblivion, not to talk about the level scaling that ruined the meaning of character development and gaining levels, which is one of the most important aspects of an RPG, game.

For me Oblivion was almost a fast paced action/adventure game that pretended to be an RPG, and I know it is too harsh, but as I was expecting a worthy successor for Morrowind, I was disappointed quite a lot.

And I'm not talking about numbers and stats, but the actual game mechanics, so although in Skyrim we no longer have Classes and Attributes, I think it would be a much better RPG than Oblivion, because of the much improved game mechanics.

Starting out in Morrowind for the first time ever was incredibly difficult...especially for someone who wasn't used to this genre. I remember trying to steal little items that looked cool like bonemold from a merchant in the foreign quarter canton in vivec.

I would also get caught and arrested. I had no idea how the game mechanics worked. Daggerfall was completely different from this.

People may say that the environment and the culture greatly influenced the enjoyment of Morrowind, and while thats true, I also think learning the ropes makes a game much more challenging and enjoyable. For instance, how easy was it for players to transition from Morrowind to Oblivion and Oblivion to Fallout?

Aside from Daedric shrine quests..its not like Oblivion restricts you all that much either.

Just let Skyrim be Skyrim. Trust me. I made this mistake for 15 hears hoping every Zelda entry would be like OoT and always find myself disappointed because I never let the games stand on their own. I became jaded. Please don't go down that path.

I think the problem was that people had too high of expectations from OB after experiencing MW (since MW was the best thing ever until OB) OB became better over all, but not nearly as much as some people expected or wanted. OB was good in some ways that MW was not (combat, magickia regeneration, hot buttons) but MW had things that were lost in OB. and I guess that just made OB feel inadequit to me. I'll admit I am jaded, but not without reason. no idea how SK will be over all, I don't have the expectation that it will be groundbreaking since todd n friends seem to be walking around things about making things better from previous games and more about making SK a seperate and different than the feel of before.

Daggerfall was my first. Morrowind is my favorite by FAR haha. I feel like they captured a particular mood with Morrowind that would be difficult to follow up on.

Loved morrowind, thought oblivion couldnt hold a candle (even though i liked oblivion) hoping skyrim is more like morrowind...


PSSST werewolves would rock along with reskinned nordic iron cuirass, daedric armor, nordic silver weapons (battleaxe in particular) , perhaps even the morrowind dwarven armor at least one suit of that style, along with lamps lanterns and candles


anyone else get that tingly whole world to explore feeling upon first loading up each elder scrolls game? got it first in halo combat evolved after stepping off drop ship (first time I played xbox) stayerd with me for at least a month in morrowind, oblivion I had for like 2 days...love that feeling but its so hard to find anymore...

Morrowind felt unique.
Bloodmoon felt unique.
Tribunal felt unique.
Oblivion felt like Lotr.
KOTN felt like Kingdom of Heaven.
Shivering isles felt unique.

This is how things felt to me, anyways.

simple.

make the game good.
after that, give it enough time for people to grow nostalgic. probably around the time that the seventh elder scrolls comes out and after oblivion has its moment of glory.

at that point, skyrim will be crap by that time's standards, and thats what people love apparently.

Now that Kirkbride's more heavily involved with the plot and new lore, and it's rather obviously going to explore the nebulous and often multifaceted nature of the gods (a new side of Akatosh on display), I'd say it will have more of that bizarre vibe that made Morrowind seem so special. Only this time we won't have to deal with terrible combat and mostly-boring magic, and hopefully there won't be ridiculously expensive and powerful weaponry just sort of lying around in easily-accessed locations.

I played Ob for 4 years before I got Morrowind, before I even knew it existed, but I bought it, and as I got of the boat it already beat Oblivion in EVERY way.

There are two critical flaws with oblivion, that I hope won't be returning. Hand holding, please no forced tutorial and no quest markers. I'd rather have unvoiced directions then quest markers. Unfortunately we know level scaling is in, but that will be modded out eventually.

Monotonous dungeons, in oblivion all the dungeons where the same thing, I think of them as lego blocks put together in different patterns. I remember they where advertised as hand crafted, but if that's true my only question is why? You could have stuck the pieces into a generator and ended up with stuff just as good. Perhaps better.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: quest markers are not bad things in and of themselves, much like level scaling. It's how it's implemented that actually matters. It's only hand-holding if you're supposed to find the thing you're looking for: a hidden entrance, a particular treasure, a certain person. It was especially aggravating in murder mystery-type quests (people choosing death over a ten-day jail sentence ignored, for the moment) where you were supposed to be looking for evidence. The marker should be disabled in that case. However, if the player is supposed to be looking for something with a location that is known in a general sense, it's very helpful to have a compass marker that keeps you moving in a particular direction, or if you're looking for someone who keeps to a regular schedule that you can follow. And of course it helps even more to be able to mark a particular place so that you can find it with no hassle later on.

As for the second concern: they've already confirmed that there are eight people working on the dungeons now, rather than just one. Also, there are fewer dungeons, but some are huge and take several hours to get through. They're also following a very specific design philosophy: strict attention to detail and variety as a goal. The dungeon they've demoed so far sounds exciting. I really want to go through it, solving puzzles, avoiding traps, killing enemies with my fancy new force lightning and FUS ROH DAHing all over the damn place, and finally get to the end with that giant frost spider and take the bastard down so I can get that golden dragon claw and learn a dragon shout, then go punch a frost troll in the face just because I can.

I think Skyrim will fell in the middle or close to it given that things are removed to reduce costs .I don't expect to be anywhere near Morrowind in any aspect but closer to Fall out 3 . Developers are targeting large audience and the larger one is this of shooters .

That's not true, even as an exaggeration. Oblivion had plenty of hills and trees to block your view.

I really dislike Morrowind's limited view distance. Yes, I'm aware that there was nothing Bethesda could do about it at the time, and I don't hold it against them, but I still don't like it. Oblivion's view distance made for some great sights, particularly on the Skingrad Castle bridge looking towards Kvatch, along the Orange Road, and up in the mountains.

The lack of the feeling of danger in Oblivion's wilderness was due to enemy level scaling. No matter how deep into the woods or caves you go, enemies were scaled to you. If you play Oblivion with mods like OOO, believe me, that feeling of danger is very present (I dare not travel up the Silver Road, or around Blackwood/Nibaney Valley/Nibenay Basin before levelling substantially and having some good gear; I also dare not travel beyond Skingrad or Chorrol early on, either). You don't need to touch the view distance to do it.


I really dislike Telvanni architecture. It's confusing (pathways were often little more than a non-descipt hole in the ceiling), difficult to move around in (kept getting stuck on the walls and floor), and had too much of a reliance on Levitation (which causes a problem for warrior-types, and moving while levitating can sometimes be tricky).

I'm actually playing through Morrowind again, in an attempt to understand what makes it so great in my eyes. I've officially ruled out "It was a new experience" because even years after it's release, and hundreds of hours, I'm still dumbstruck by how immersed I can get in the experience. Granted, I utilize a few mods. My own custom balance adjustments (Things like increasing consumable cost to stabilize economic balance, adjusting weapon speeds and damage thresholds, and altering armor characteristics to get a more smooth progression curve). But nothing so far as Content updates or the like. It's still Vanilla at it's core.


For one, the pacing of Morrowind is just fantastic. It may be a little on the slow side for some people, with a lack of narrative urgency, even towards the climix, but, despite what most critics would say, that's befitting of the experience I think Bethesda should deliver. As Todd Howard said in the German Interview, the Land is the Main character. Players should be given time to get absorbed in the world before the main antagonistic force is thrown in their face. Oblivion didn't even wait until after the Tutorial dungeon to declare Armageddon.

Atmosphere is another important attribute of Morrowind. Now, we aren't going to get another Vvardenfell, but that's not really the point. Oblivion and Cyrodiil didn't really have an atmosphere, everything in the game felt so disconnected. The Guilds, the towns, the people. Nothing was really woven together in a way that made it seem like the world had persistence. Everything was just build in a linear tube. I suppose the justification for it was "Being locked out of content is never a good idea" and that's true if it's for arbitrary reasons, but forcing weighty decisions can make the player that much more invested in the world. Honestly, I think it's worth the risk. You're guaranteed to deliver a bland experience overall if you are cautious, and a universally worse experience overall. At least by taking the risk, you gain an entirely new layer of depth to the world, at expense of maybe a dozen or so ignorant flame rants on the forums from people who have an overinflated sense of privilege. Good news from Skyrim so far, is that the detail to the "Little" things, like Chopping wood, and mining, may seem stupid at first, but it's these tiny things that wind up tying the experience together.

"Filler" Dialog: This is interesting, and one of my more recent revelations in Morrowind. The Text format is a lot easier when it comes to dialog assignment, so it's no surprise that so many of the details in the game are communicated so well. Take "Egg Mines" for example. I remember back when I first started playing Morrowind all those years ago. The second Fighter's guild mission. "Egg Miners, what the hell?" thinking how Silly it was, just as Eydis Fire-Eye said so as well. But what is important about this, is that "Egg Mining" is effectively conveyed as a staple of life on Vvardenfell, from something as simple as placing these items in people's food stores, to missions involving the sabotage of rival egg mines. The message is clear, Kwama eggs are big business, despite their humble nature. Skyrim, unfortunately has the Halo-generation to appease, so we'll likely never see spoken dialog at the depth we saw written in Morrowind. Still, a man can dream.


I think I'll stop there for now. Todd has came out and said "Oblivion sacrificed what made Morrowind special" on a number of occasions. Now, I'm hoping that's just not fan appeasemant, and it is a true sentiment, because if Skyrim can bring the atmospheric depth of Morrowind, with the kinetic, brutal and satisfying combat we've been promised (And seeing, but seeing and feeling are totally different), It's entirely possible for Morrowind to be dethroned, at least from my "Best game in the universe" Pedestal.

Also, someone took a stab at Level Scaling. Just so you know, Fallout 3 and Morrowind have virtually the same exact form of level scaling. Fallout 3 is a little more aggressive with it. Most people don't notice the scaling in Morrowind, because most players wind up Powertraining well into the teen levels. But try playing it "Naturally", and you'll see. Scribs give way to Alits, Alits will give way to Kagoutis, Kagouties will become blighted and stronger, Scamps will be replaced by Winged Twilights. Where Morrowind succeeds, is it does not write out low-level creatures from the lists. It just gives them a lower probability of spawn, and Hostile "Named" NPC's are all static. Though honestly, I think you could implement some Oblivion Level scaling on certain NPC's to give the illusion of independent Progress. It just has to be very rare, and used in fitting context. Like say, "Fighter's guild Protector", it makes sense to come back maybe 20 days later to see He's gain himself some skill and equipment.

As I said before, it all depends on what we want from an RPG game, and IMHO too, Morrowind is a better game in ALL aspects that I expect from an RPG game.

Edit:


Yes, the best way to implement GPS markers is to omit them altogether. Especially "Point of Interest" markers, as those totally ruined the exploration for me, in Oblivion, and there was no sense of triumph and surprise to stumble upon a dungeon entrance.

In the end, when quest markers are in, the quest developers gradually come to rely on them and more and more start to place those on the map and gradually omit adding notes, mile stones, land marks and the directions in dialogs and quest logs, to the game in order to guide the players to the targets of the quests.

When I'm not looking at the scenery to find a clue to guide me toward the target, when I'm using magic map to jump to the nearest point to the target, and then following the red or green carrots on the compass display, that guides me toward the exact position of the quest target, I'm no longer immersed in the game and not looking around and absorbing the beauty of a new world, but following a series of carrots around the world and completing quests in a rapid sequence, not living another life in a wonderful, stylish and unique virtual world, as was my experience in Morrowind.

And I'm saying there is no perfect place to use it and the less it used the better, and it only results in breaking our immersion from the scenery and relying on a radar blip on the HUD, in front of the scenery.


Yeah, me too.


Yeah the pace was perfect and it let us submerge into the exquisite atmosphere, and absorb the feeling of the new world. Just Perfect!


I hope they would infuse some of Morrowind's stylish and unique atmosphere into Skyrim as much as they can possibly do.


As I said before, fully voiced dialogs is a predicament to dynamic quest and NPC-AI development. And after Morrowind, there is no hope of getting free of that problem, unless voiced dialogs evolve into procedurally generated voices.


Possible, but hard to achieve.


Loot and Monster level scaling is just part of the scenario.

The other part is hand placed, unique and themed monster and loot, with a visible and fitting story behind them all, and I hope to see that in Skyrim again.

If Morrowind had been slightly more beautiful in any aspect, I would have become blinded and would not have seen the let down that was Oblivion. Sadly I wasn't blinded and I had high hopes.

Indeed!

I think Skyrim is going to stand on it's own very well. All we need is to wait a bit now to find out.

The ONLY way I could see quest markers as a legitimate experience is if you break out your map, and then someone marks the map say with a circle that gives you 50-300 meter radius to search in. If it leads you straight to dungeon door you have never been too then it is hand holding. Doesn't matter if it's a known location or not.

Got to love Jeremy Soule. Him and Martin O'Donnell and maybe Inon Zur are legends.

Morrowind was Bethesda's Dark Side Of The Moon. :bowdown: