[REL] Morrowind Lockpicking : IV - Oblivion

» Mon May 16, 2011 11:19 am

True.
Implemented it. Problem is that I'm not quite sure how to test if it works correctly, but in theory it should.
There will be two general chance values of finding a lockpick (one for containers, one for creatures/NPCs), and then the relative chances between the four lockpicks that can be found in leveled lists. For example, you might have a 1% chance of finding a lockpick in a container, and relative chances of 10/20 (Apprentice), 6/20 (Journeyman), 3/20 (Master) and 1/20 (Grandmaster). That means that in 1 of 100 cases, you'll find a lockpick, and in 1 of 200 cases, it will be an Apprentice's Lockpick.
All in all this amounts to 6 different values with which you can customize the rarity of lockpicks.

Yay, that sounds awesome. My appreciation for implementing this.

» Mon May 16, 2011 8:08 am

Hello,

Great mod! Another bit of Morrowind that is very welcome in Oblivion : )

Just wondering, Im starting a new char, and on the first skeleton on the prision I found a lockpick, but when I equip it and try to use it on a lock it says"Im not strong enough to bash this lock open". Is it to be expected?

Thanks!

» Mon May 16, 2011 4:04 am

Just wondering, Im starting a new char, and on the first skeleton on the prision I found a lockpick, but when I equip it and try to use it on a lock it says"Im not strong enough to bash this lock open". Is it to be expected?

This is due to OOO's lock bashing feature. Try it while sneaking.

» Mon May 16, 2011 3:26 am

This is due to OOO's lock bashing feature. Try it while sneaking.

I use OOO and can use this mod without needing to into sneak mode.

Could it be that lockpick was not converted by this mod?

» Mon May 16, 2011 1:19 pm

I use OOO and can use this mod without needing to into sneak mode.

Could it be that lockpick was not converted by this mod?

You dont have to sneak? Maybe a mod conflict on my setup? I forgot to set the mod as Relev (yes I know.. the readme). But even after setting it, it still only works while sneaking. Otherwise it says the lock bash message

Regarding that, Im really rusty on Bash configuration after all these months.. so, what′s the usual behavior? Should I select all mods that appear on the Merge Patches, and also all mods that appear on Import Cells, Scripts, Stats, Actors AIPackages etc? Im also using BOSS previosly.

Thanks for any help

» Mon May 16, 2011 3:32 am

Could it be that lockpick was not converted by this mod?

No, there is only one type of lockpick. Also, he apparently was able to equip the lockpick, otherwise there wouldn't have been the lock bash message anyway.

koki - What happened exactly? Did your character swing the lockpick as if it was a weapon, or did he make the lockpicking animation from this mod? Did you try a couple of times (and did the lock eventually open), or did you try only once?
If the lock eventually opens and the right animation is played, then the only conflict would be that unwanted message from Lock Bash, so that would be not a big problem. Still, I'd advise you to disable OOO's Lock Bash and use tejon's Lock Bash Omega, which most certainly does a better job at getting its conditions right. (Lock Bash from OOO is a good feature for people who don't use OBSE, but since you're using OBSE, Lock Bash Omega has more options to scan for the right moment when the bashing should trigger, and is therefore the recommended choice.)

BTW, setting the mod to Relev has nothing to do with things like this

It only concerns the implementation of the new lockpicks into the world.

» Mon May 16, 2011 7:21 am

No, there is only one type of lockpick. Also, he apparently was able to equip the lockpick, otherwise there wouldn't have been the lock bash message anyway.

koki - What happened exactly? Did your character swing the lockpick as if it was a weapon, or did he make the lockpicking animation from this mod? Did you try a couple of times (and did the lock eventually open), or did you try only once?
If the lock eventually opens and the right animation is played, then the only conflict would be that unwanted message from Lock Bash, so that would be not a big problem. Still, I'd advise you to disable OOO's Lock Bash and use tejon's Lock Bash Omega, which most certainly does a better job at getting its conditions right. (Lock Bash from OOO is a good feature for people who don't use OBSE, but since you're using OBSE, Lock Bash Omega has more options to scan for the right moment when the bashing should trigger, and is therefore the recommended choice.)

BTW, setting the mod to Relev has nothing to do with things like this

It only concerns the implementation of the new lockpicks into the world.

Hey Fearabbit,

Thanks for the reply! Yes, the lockpick animation is played and indeed after several tries the message stops and the chest opens.

Do you know how can I disable OOO′s lock bash? I checked this http://devnull.sweetdanger.net/OOO/OOO_Guide.html, but it only says how to change lock bash difficulty. Should I only load Lock Bash Omega after OOO?

Thanks again!

» Mon May 16, 2011 3:07 am

Do you know how can I disable OOO′s lock bash?

At the moment, you can't (I'm in touch with the OOO team on that); but it doesn't conflict seriously with Lock Bash Omega. Turn up the OOO difficulty and it shouldn't conflict at all, just occasionally give you inaccurate messages.

» Mon May 16, 2011 8:07 am

At the moment, you can't (I'm in touch with the OOO team on that); but it doesn't conflict seriously with Lock Bash Omega. Turn up the OOO difficulty and it shouldn't conflict at all, just occasionally give you inaccurate messages.

What? That can't be, I never ever see it in my game at all. It still makes the object in question glow purple, doesn't it? And I most definitely never see that, especially not when using my lockpicks. :huh:
(Well, I believe you that it obviously is the case, I'm just wondering why I never see it then. I thought I had turned it off.)

Oh wait, maybe it's an OOO Cobl feature?

» Mon May 16, 2011 6:44 am

Oh wait, maybe it's an OOO Cobl feature?

Could well be. I wouldn't know, don't use Cobl.

» Mon May 16, 2011 12:06 pm

For me the chests all glow purple but with the lockpick in hand no bashing and again not required I sneak.

I do use COBL.

I'm wondering though if Koki is using a bashed patch and if so that OOO us tagged with scripts. If not could be a mod conflict - one thing the scripts thing does is return lock bash function to OOO (prior to that tag being implemented I did use tejon's version).

» Mon May 16, 2011 4:13 pm

For me the chests all glow purple

This means the bashing script has activated; it's decided you have enough Strength to handle the lock. If you were to power attack it with a blunt weapon, you'd get an OOO bash chance. Only difference for Koki is that his Strength is too low, so he gets the message instead. But it's true that this shouldn't prevent Morrowind Lockpicking from functioning correctly, just as it doesn't actually interfere with Lock Bash Omega.

» Mon May 16, 2011 10:52 am

For me the chests all glow purple but with the lockpick in hand no bashing and again not required I sneak.

I do use COBL.

I'm wondering though if Koki is using a bashed patch and if so that OOO us tagged with scripts. If not could be a mod conflict - one thing the scripts thing does is return lock bash function to OOO (prior to that tag being implemented I did use tejon's version).

On Bash "Import Scripts" I have OOO (esp and esm), MMM (esm,.esp), Harvest Flora, MMM-SI, FCOM, Atmospheric Oblivion, USIP and MMM-Hunt Crafting, all selected. Is this correct?
Import Scripts Content is empty.

» Mon May 16, 2011 1:32 am

On Bash "Import Scripts" I have OOO (esp and esm), MMM (esm,.esp), Harvest Flora, MMM-SI, FCOM, Atmospheric Oblivion, USIP and MMM-Hunt Crafting, all selected. Is this correct?
Import Scripts Content is empty.

As i understand it that is correct.

» Mon May 16, 2011 12:21 pm

What is the impact of this mod on NPCs?
Some mod (MMM additionnal Variable Enemies, b3w4r3 Companion Master) introduce NPC that can use (via security skill) vanilla lockpicks!
Should this mod conflict with this system?

A clear answer to this will be crucial for me to use this mod.

Anyway nice work and thanks for the effort.

» Mon May 16, 2011 5:20 am

What is the impact of this mod on NPCs?
Some mod (MMM additionnal Variable Enemies, b3w4r3 Companion Master) introduce NPC that can use (via security skill) vanilla lockpicks!
Should this mod conflict with this system?

A clear answer to this will be crucial for me to use this mod.

Anyway nice work and thanks for the effort.

This mod will work without any problems in combination with those mods. Clear enough?

» Mon May 16, 2011 11:27 am

This mod will work without any problems in combination with those mods. Clear enough?

Clear enough even fine

In the past I tested Zumb lockpicking but my experience with it was short because I found it unbalanced.
The special unbreakable lockpicks were enough easy to get and they permit to raise security skill way faster than vanilla system.

I want a system that give the same difficulty/rarity of vanilla lockpicks and somewhat a similar rate of security skill progress.
My current character is Stealth Assassin, level 25, 52 security. In my current game I disabled most of Daedric quests, in particular the one of Noctural.
I'm using only one source of lockpicks http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=4578 and I edited this mod to delete some overpowered items from selling (in particular a certain Skeleton Key) + lockpicks looted from containers and dead NPCs. My character is not part of Thieves Guild Faction, so if your special lockpicks can be purchased only from TG fences this will be not good for me. I intend later to join OOO slavers and smugglers fences faction.
Well this is my story.

» Mon May 16, 2011 1:22 pm

H I'm playing Nehrim, & at the moment using Zumbs lock picking , but I would love to use this. Is there any chance of it being modified for Nehrim? 'm guessing it wont be enough to just change the masters. There will be a need for a different fence to sell the lock picks as well & probably other changes to. For the Fence I would suggest Targor in the backyard in Erothin, he would be a lot safer choice than Slippery Sam, he always got killed in my Oblivion games. This is a bet beyond my current skills. I still haven't succeeded in getting Darn,s Hud menu to work in my game!! & that should be dead simple so I don't think I'm up to this yet Thanks Beebee

» Mon May 16, 2011 10:50 am

I wonder if the author is still around. There has been no reply on the Nexus to posts there.

» Mon May 16, 2011 8:45 am

I wonder if the author is still around. There has been no reply on the Nexus to posts there.

Umm, because you didn't ask a question.

Anyway, I have version 3 of this mod on my computer, and I'd really like to release it. The problem is that I can't give it a last test run because my graphics card died, and my recently bought new computer has a hard disk problem so I sent it to repair today. :shakehead:

However, the friendly people of the TESAlliance Betatesting Guild kindly betatested my mod, and during the very severe tests, only not-so-severe stuff was found, which I either already fixed or really is a matter of taste. Or I forgot about them, because guess what, my computer also doesn't allow me to go to TESAlliance anymore.

ANYWAY, the mod is definitely more bugfree than the current version, so I do want to release it. It'll include an INI file that allows you full customization of just about every value used in the formulas, so that you can really make the realtime lockpicking system you've always wanted.

As soon as I find out who my second betatester was, I'll release this thing. But I can't recall the name of the second tester, which is really bad I know.

So in order to find it out, I sent an angry rant letter to my internet provider for that stupid search page they made that I can't deactivate and which sometimes keeps me from going to perfectly normal, functioning websites.

So yeah, that's my current dilemma situation, dunno, I felt like sharing it. I heard some people saying now that they were interested in the customizable version of this, and I felt really bad for having it sit around on my broken laptop and not releasing it just because I can't play it myself.

» Mon May 16, 2011 8:36 am

Good to know this mod is still supported, looking forward for the next release

» Mon May 16, 2011 9:39 am

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=31424

And hopefully, bug-free!
You should really take a look at the INI file now, it's rather complex.

- new in version 3.0: Added MorrowindLockpicking.ini file with many customization options. The two separate scripts from version 2.1 have now been merged into one script again, because the choice between these two systems can now be made by changing the values in the INI file. Overhauled leveled lists and implemented customization of lockpick rarity.

The formula it is based on is this:
Chance = BreakChanceMax * { [ PickEquippedUses - PickEquippedAvgUses - BreakChanceSecLuckEff * ( Security + Agility - 100 ) ] * BreakChanceAscent + 0.5 }

- BreakChanceMax is the upper cap for the chance of breaking a lockpick at an attempt; the formula can also be capped at the lower end with a value called BreakChanceMin.
- BreakChanceSecLuckEff is a small factor that determines how influential Security and Agility are. (I believe that you could technically make this value negative so that picking locks gets more difficult as you advance your skills! That's how flexible this system is now! It's really not advised, though.)
- BreakChanceAscent is the value that determines how much the chance of breaking increases each time you use the lockpick.
- PickEquippedAvgUses is the value of the "average" number of uses as set in the INI file. Note here that the *actual* average of course depends on your formula! Basically, this average is the one you get if you set BreakChanceAscent to 100000 (that will result in the lockpick breaking *exactly* after having been used [PickEquippedAvgUses] times).

» Mon May 16, 2011 6:46 pm

Ahh, not only is it Morrowind style. But that video brought me back to the days of Deus Ex :wub:

» Mon May 16, 2011 6:16 am

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=31424

And hopefully, bug-free!
You should really take a look at the INI file now, it's rather complex.

Cool!
As I have stated earlier, one of the benefits with this is that one wont lockpick a door by mistake :hehe:

Thank you!

» Mon May 16, 2011 8:53 am

I wrote this earlier in the thread, but I believe the current version is the first one that actually has this feature implemented? :huh: Can't remember. Anyway, I thought I'd dig it up so that you can see how to handle the formula (in addition to explaining it a bit in my previous post).

Like I said, I made some graphs that show the effect of my formula for the chance to break the lockpick at the Nth time you're using it. There are two graphs: The first one shows the chance with which the actual calculation is made after each lockpicking attempt (this is the formula you can customize). The second graph shows the value (Chance of still having the lockpick before Nth attempt) * (Chance of NOT having the lockpick anymore after Nth attempt). Basically, this is the actual probability of breaking the lockpick at exactly the Nth use.
I chose 25 as average number of uses, however that value has no special effect, except that it shifts the graph to the left or to the right.

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/1918/graph4.jpg
This is one of the two implemented formulas in the current version of Morrowind Lockpicking. You're safe for around 17 uses, after that the chance of breaking will rise fast; the effect is that your actual "average number of uses" is around 22 uses (however these graphs don't take into account the effect Agility and Luck have, so in this case the average is a pretty good estimation).
These will be the default settings in the next version of Morrowind Lockpicking.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4963/graph3.jpg
Here we have the values needed to recreate Morrowind's lockpicking system to the very last detail. As you can see, the ONLY number of uses that has an actual probability that your lockpick will break is 25, i.e. in all cases your lockpick will break after having been used exactly the number of times that is its "average number of uses".

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4916/graph2fp.jpg
This is a good example of how misleading the formula is (or might be to some people). If you set minimum AND maximum break chance to 0.1, you get a constant chance of breaking which is at 10%. You'll see in the second graph that your actual "average number of uses" for the lockpick then is somewhere around 9 uses, however it's a broad peak, so the result for each lockpick will vary a lot.

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/2077/graph1l.jpg
Another effective result that might be surprising. The formula is now a linear function, starting at a chance of 0 and going up to a max chance of 0.1, which it reaches after 48 uses. You might think that this is on average a very low chance, but as you can see, the probability is highest for the 26th use, and the peak is very broad, so you might sometimes have lockpicks with a duration of 40 uses, and sometimes they will only last 9 uses.