I've been using Zumb's mod for a little while now, but I decided to stop using it for the same reason that I'm going to have to give your mod a pass. I get really, really tired of juggling my weapon, the lockpick, a shield, and a torch, plus fishing around for dropped torches, sheathing, unsheathing, resheathing... Then when all my gear is back in place and I'm finally ready to go back to adventuring I turn around and there's another locked chest! FFFFUUUU~

OnmyojiOmn-

That can be addressed with a good hotkey cycler mod. I have the number one key to cycle through melee weapons and the number two key to cycle through ranged weapons which includes both a staff of unlock and currently zumbs lock pick. from there onto spells and scripted spells. Switching between any of them is only as hard as a few key taps. Skyrangers hotkey mod is the best I've found. Add in drop lit torches and all that fishing in the inventory is only a pain when resetting the keys with new items and spells.

Fearabbit-

So I'm thinking of switching from Zumbs - but not sure yet. Do you have a recommended method of making that move. I'm thinking of keeping Zumbs loaded earlier until the character has collected some lockpicks then ditching Zumbs - do you see an issue with that?

Then I looked at the mod in edit and ran the cleaning protocol it reported these duplicate records:
Removing: ICElvenGardensEntrance01 [CELL:00005E94] (in Tamriel [WRLD:0000003C] at 5,17)
Removing: GRUP Exterior Cell Sub-Block 2, 0
Removing: GRUP Exterior Cell Block 0, 0

I'm assuming safe to remove - correct?

Then also load order - around where Zumbs is located seem alright? Would seem that it would have to go after other mods that might do what Zumbs did by adding more bounty for each observed attempt. So I'm thinking at the end of the stealth section.

Also the BOSS folks might appreciate a consistent naming protocol so that each new release does not necessitate an update to the masterlist.

thanks

Psymon:

Switching from Zumbs to Morrowind Lockpicking:
Zumbs doesn't remove any vanilla lockpicks from your inventory, which means that even if you deactivate it, you'll keep the vanilla lockpicks. Then when you activate my mod, these will get turned into Apprentice's Lockpicks. So there's no special procedure required to go from Zumbs to my mod, just deactivate Zumbs and then activate Morrowind Lockpicking. (I do suggest that you remove a couple of your new lockpicks however, because you'll normally have a lot of vanilla lockpicks in your inventory, which can be unbalancing if they all get turned into Apprentice's lockpicks.)

Cleaning the plugin:
No, it's not okay to remove those entries. The first one is there because Shady Sam gets a container with the new lockpicks, and I guess the other ones are for the fences who sell my new lockpicks.
Well, if you don't want these changes, it won't break the mod or anything, but you won't find the new lockpicks for sale then.

Consistent naming protocol:
Where have I been inconsistent? As far as I know, my last version was called Morrowind Lockpicking.esp, and the new version is called Morrowind Lockpicking.esp as well. :huh:

Load order:
I don't really know where the mod should go. It is very similar to Zumbs in all the main factors that determine where it should go, so I guess it's safe to place it somewhere around Zumbs' area. But there also shouldn't be any mods after it that change the leveled lists LL0LootLockpick25 and LL0LootLockpick15.

Thanks regarding Zumbs and the advice of how the lockpicks change - what does that mean if I uninstall this mod?

As for cleaning - tes4edit reads these as exact duplicate records - are you sure? Sorry to doubt - I just seem to keep running into people who don't seem to get the duplicate entry thing. I will leave removed and test shady sam though. If the lockpicks are available then it would seem that the duplicate records are not needed.

the most recent esp is named Morrowind Lockpicking v2.esp

Duh, I'm an idiot. I don't know why I renamed that (sure didn't do it in my own data folder). I'll update the file soon.

About duplicate records - I don't know what that means. All I know is that I added a chest to that cell, and that I was very careful not to do anything else, so that there *should* be no unnecessary records in the plugin. Would be nice to hear how removing the records affects Shady Sam's inventory.

Ok so gearing up to install - my character has ~500 lockpicks. I think I will drop 300 into a house container before activating - if they are not in the inventory they will not be changed - correct?

If that seems a lot - the character is level 19 and was primarily using only the Zumbs method anyway (hence no loss of picks).

I'll let you know in the next day or two about shady sam.

Assuming I did all my math right, this should satisfy both of us with a single option toggle.

float valuefloat breakChancefloat breakRollshort bComplexshort playerSecurity; This constant produces a ~4% base break chancelet breakChance := -79.5; This setting makes break chance dynamic according to several factorsif bComplex; GetLockDifficulty should return the Oblivion lock level, range 1..99	let breakChance += (call GetLockDifficulty); This block correctly adjusts Security skill by Luck.	let value := player.GetAV Luck	let value *= GetGameSetting iActorLuckSkillMult	let value += GetGameSetting iAcorLuckSkillBase	let playerSecurity := player.GetAV Security	let value += playerSecurity	if value <= 0		let playerSecurity := 0	elseif value > 100		if playerSecurity < 100			let playerSecurity := 100		endif	else		let playerSecurity := floor value	endif; "GetPickQuality" should return the values you use, e.g. Master = 1.3, except Skeleton Key should return 1.0; The 0.84 allows a tiny chance of Apprentice/Skeleton breakage vs. 99 lock at 99 skill, but none at 100	let playerSecurity /= (call GetPickQuality) * 0.84	let breakChance -= playerSecurityendif; Finally, the actual calculation. Same technique I used in Lock Bash Omega.; Two separate percentile rolls are made, one modified, and the two compared.let breakRoll := (rand 0 1) * 99let breakRoll += breakChancelet value := (rand 0 1) * 99if value < breakRoll	(call BrokenPick)endif

I think you love to think these things out tejon . Next thing you know we will have Lockpick Omega! :shifty:

I removed the duplicate entries and Shady Sam still sells the appropriate lockpicks. So I think cleaning it works fine. I also want to say that I love this mod, because its simple yet so effective. I didn't want everything that came with Zumbs lockpick mod, but at the same time I wanted something Akin to morrowind lockpicking.

As for the skeleton key. I have a small idea. You should make the actual oblivion skeleton key into something else. Keep it as a "lockpick" according to the CS, but make it something else in the game such as a Wrist Brace. That way it doesn't seem weird having two skeleton keys where one does nothing, and at the same time anything that relies on the skeleton key can still do so.

I think the skeleton key quest should be a gauntlet that tests ones lockpicking skills. I think it would be cool to have a series of tests, such as the mage guild quest where you had to do the tests in that guys dream. I.E. Have one where chests needs to be unlocked in a certain order and before a timer runs out. You could even have a series of cages with monsters in them and the player needs to pick each door in the cage to get to the next without dying (so its good to get the lock picked the first time).

Or you could go for a more traditional approach where you have the security master trainer who talks about how he can make the best pick if he had the right materials and you go around and collect the materials. I like this one as well although it's been done many times.

Hey tejon, thank you for giving this a try, but that formula is contrary to many things I want. It is at its core very similar to my formula for lockpicking - in a way that I could almost simply combine a failed lockpicking attempt with breaking the lockpick, i.e. returning to vanilla Oblivion's system. (A system which I found not convincing at all.)

What I had in mind was a http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/thumb/e/e7/LogWachs1.svg/390px-LogWachs1.svg.png for the chance. For the first 10 uses, there's little chance that the lock breaks, but then it gradually rises, until at around 30 uses, it will almost be a certainty that the lock is about to break.

Edit: After some testing, this seems like a good formula:

Chance = 0,8 / ( 1 + exp(-0,4*(Uses – Buffer)) * 16 )
Buffer = 19 + Security/30 + Luck/50 + SkeletonKeyModifier

This is the formula for the chance which would be calculated for each time the lockpick is used. "Uses" is the number of times the lockpick has already been used, the SkeletonKeyModifier is 25 in case the player uses my mod's Skeleton Key. For example, the chance for a normal lockpick to break at its 25th use is 15% with Security and Luck at 50. However, since each single use already calculates a chance like this, the chance that the lockpick WILL be broken after the 25th use - no matter if it was actually broken at the 14th use, at the 20th use or at the 25th - is 54%!
The chance that exactly the 25th use will break the lockpick is 11% (this number gets lower from the 27th use one, as then it will be much more likely that one of the uses BEFORE will already have broken the lockpick).

Edit 2:
I made three linear approximations from the curve that resulted from the formula above; basically, it is now a linear function that is capped at the values 0 and 80.
Chance = 4 * Uses - 55 - 0.2 * ( Security + Luck )
If this value is below 0 or above 80, it is capped to the respective value. For the probabilities, little has changed, but I was able to avoid the exponential component of the old formula, and keep everything rather simple. If we can agree on this calculation for the chance of breaking your lockpick, then I should be able to upload a new version tomorrow (need to do some testing first).

Edit 3:
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/738/chancea.jpg (to make this less confusing: e.g. after 20 uses you roughly have a chance of 68% of NOT having broken your lockpick.)
(This diagram was made with (Luck + Security) = 50. With values that make this sum, you have an average lifespan somewhere in the area of 23 uses.)

Well, enough stuff in that last post to justify a small bump.

http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=31424
Still called v2.0 since the original mod hasn't changed, all that's been added is a new alternative ESP file which has the chance calculation for lockpick breaking.
Take a look and see for yourself if you like it this way.

Love the idea, love the way the skill increases...you learn from your mistakes, but not as much as from your successes.

Any chance of adding traps/probes?

What I loved most about Morrowinds style (other than it is purely character skill) was that you felt like a real thief with a burglary kit...you'd maybe take an apprentice pick for small locks, a master for hard locks, a probe or two for traps. In Oblivion I'd just waltz around with 60 lockpicks...not realistic. Loud, cumbersome, heavy.

Excellent work.

I really enjoy this mod! Brings back the good ole days!

Just had an interesting thought, based on the same idea that better-calibrated tools are more sensitive to wear, and the fact that you're using a cumulative rather than static break chance (and I do see where you're coming from with that)... with some judicious use of CloneForms, you could [a] make a worn-out pick actually perform worse, and/or [b] change the name of the pick to reflect its current state of wear, either as a percentage or with "Worn," "Very Worn," "Nearly Broken" sorts of tags. You could also avoid storing a global "when's the pick gonna break?" value, which has various potential complications, by basing the chance on the wear level as recorded in the pick's name.

Hm? What kind of complications do you mean?
Other than that: With a little more scripting, I could probably make a system that reduces the quality of a lockpick based on a chance that is calculated from the number of uses. I will think about it, although right now I'm thinking "yes, that would be cool, but right now the mod is already cool as well, and I don't know if implementing this will make it so much cooler that it's worth overthrowing my whole concept of this mod, which is to recreate Morrowind's system, in which I have succeeded".

Oh, just the standard stuff... gotta handle each pick type explicitly to avoid removing a Master pick based on Apprentice pick uses; can't treat the picks as unique, individual items because when you call RemoveItem you don't always know which one will go; etc.


Haha, yeah, that part keeps slipping my mind. The mechanics are so different in so many places that while I also tend to prefer Morrowind's, they often feel out-of-place when added to Oblivion. But hey, that's why I make my own mods. And until I get around to it (if I do), this one's definitely in my load order!

Aww please don't make your own mod, you'll steal all my potential downloads.
But anyway, I was thinking that I could add an ingame menu that lets people switch between different lockpicking systems. Nothing too fancy, just to put those two different approaches from version 2 into one plugin file again, and maybe add some more systems.

On another note, UK47 said he might give the animations another shot, and I'm really excited about that.

Fan of .ini files myself. That way you don't have to set it per-character, and there's no mucking about with the console or inventory-clutter-config or suchlike.

But either way, yeah, if you're willing to bundle the extra options, that's less work for me. And more downloads for you!

Finally got around to installing and all mu lockpicks in my inventory were changed to apprentice - so that seemed to work.

However in traveling the colovian west and slaying a vile bandit I look in his inventory and see http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo54/psymon11b/LLplaceholder.jpg. Looks like a dummy item to redirect leveled lists or some such thing that is over my head.

The formID after picking up changes to ff0b954b and then dropping it and use console command 'GetBaseObject' and I get FormID ##db014fc8 with the leading numbers indicating this mod.

So it would seem there is an issue with the new lockpicks showing up. I will continue to look for more instances of this.
and will keep Zumbs loaded as well in case.

Well, Phitt told me that the "Chance None" function of leveled items isn't working, so I created dummy items which are set to be not playable and circumvented that problem this way.
I have no idea why you can see them. Do you, by any chance, have a mod that makes all non-playable items playable?

Apart from that: Everything is working fine and the lockpicks show up just like they should, it's just in the case that they're NOT supposed to show up, you'll get one of those dummy items (even though you shouldn't). (By the way: Replacing the dummy items with better dummy items is already on the to-do list.)

On another note: Still waiting for UK47's new animation, then I'll start working on the next version.

Can't say I've tested functionality a lot, but no I do not have a tweak to make all armor playable (even with bash).

I think you can even use empty leveled lists for calculation. Personally I use a leveled list with 1-3 gold pieces and a chance none of 75 instead of an empty one to give the player something at least. In that case chance none can be used since it is not used for calculating a total chance for other lists so it doesn't really matter.

Completely empty levelled lists tend to be purged by Wrye Bash, I believe. So one with generic items in it is probably best.

Just add this script to the item and you'll never notice it:

scn blaBegin Menumode	RemoveMeEnd

Only problem could be encumbrance, but since it's possible to use a weight of 0 (at least as a Quest-Item) this shouldn't be a problem.

OMG...I just love this mod!!!!!!!!!!

Rut roh-

I guess I did have the all armor playable option active in my bashed patch and that is what led to seeing the LL diverters of the fur gauntlets.

don't see them now.