Ok then, we should disregard the events of Arena too then? A lot of things should be disregarded but the Dunmer skin color clearly isn't one of them. Also, Oblivion is wrong in this too though since it still has the Dunmer with different skin color so as I said this is a problem with Daggerfall. Where the Oblivion situation is random change from Daggerfall and Morrowind. If you think that there should be an explanation to Morrowind's Dunmer having grey/blue skin then as around but Oblivion no bein a jungle is just as valid as a complaint as level scaling and the quest compass are except this one has lore backing it up too.

It must be a nightmare to make a realistic in-game jungle. After all, a jungle is supposed to be a almost impenetrable vegetation, something would need a quite hefty game mechanics, unless you make use of invisible walls ore something.

Then Bethesda needs a different game engine. According to lore Cyrodil is a jungle and if they change it, provided they have a decent explanation there would be no problem or, there would but there would be less of a problem and, of course, turning it into a stereo-typical fantasy world lacking in imagination didn't help their argument.

1) Morrowind changed Dunmer skin colour from human skin colour to grey or blue. No explanation for it.
2) Oblivion changed parts of Cyrodiil from a jungle to a tropical forest. Dunmer skin colour remained grey or blue, although predominantly the latter. A crap explanation for it.

If it's possible to determine which lorebreak is more significant, then it's that of Morrowind, as no lore explanation is provided, making it effectively a useless piece of information.

There actually is a lore explanation. Tiber used his divine breath to turn it into a temperate forest because his Nord generals and troops hated jungle.

They did explain though. The Dunmer were originally Chimer but Azura made them Dunmer and darkened skin when they worshiped the Tribunal instead of her. There is your explanation. So neither have great explanations but its possible the Dunmer in Daggerfall were actually Chimer in all but name I guess. Its just like the Tiber Septim thing. Both are don't work with the time line but the difference is that with the Dunmer they did it to give them more lore but with Cyrodil there is an interview where someone admitted they were trying to remove the originality from Oblivion.

The Elder Scrolls series developed from a fairly standard adventure game (that was originally intended to be a fighter game) in a fairly standard fantasy world, which became gradually more distinct from other fantasy worlds in Daggerfall, Battlespire, and most significantly in Redguard and Morrowind. Aurbis as presented circa Morrowind is generally taken to be the "true" representation of that world, and so inconsistencies previous to Morrowind are less problematic than inconsistencies post Morrowind. The complaint against Oblivion (one of them, but a major one) isn't just that Oblivion's lore is inconsistent with past lore, it's that the world as presented in Oblivion lost the distinctiveness which we came to expect from Morrowind. This does not necessarily mean people expected Oblivion to be like Morrowind, but rather for it to be recognizable as a particular fantasy world clearly distinguishable from others.

I think I've echoed what Nalion said earlier.

Having said that, again, there's still a lot of good stuff in Oblivion. Also, I don't understand the veritable antipathy some posters have for the main quest. I'm sympathetic to the complaint that there was not enough depth to connect the main quest in a solid way with politics, religion, etc. However, that doesn't mean the main quest was wholly illogical and utterly shallow: it wasn't. When I look at complaints about the main quest I often feel that the other person was playing a different game than I was. At least we must have understood the story very differently.

DF dark elves did have grey skin and red eyes. Only Barenziah and her kids did not have grey skin, but had the red eyes

http://uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Barenziah did not have red eyes.

oops. She still looks like a generic queen anywho.

Yes, if that's the official explanation for the change between Daggerfall and Morrowind then that Talos explanation for Cyrodiil not being a jungle seems pretty decent.

Dark Elves always had grey skin...Only Barenziah, Helseth, and Morgiah didn't, and Helseth and Morgiah had red eyes, while Barenziah was subjected to being a generic looking queen

Personally, I'm glad they kept out of the politics. I dislike dealing with politics in general, and working through Morrowind's main quest just bolstered my dislike of Dunmer ways. I do agree about religion, though. I would've expected more of a reaction with Daedra worship, especially since some Daedra Lords would likely not approve of what Dagon was doing, while Dagon's worshipers seemed to be wholly contained within the Mythic Dawn.


Ditto. It was more action-oriented over Morrowind's adventure-oriented main quest, but given the nature of the quest, I don't think it really could've been presented differently. Morrowind had Dagoth Ur slowly rising in power, and while the Blight was getting worse, it had been around for hundreds of years. Oblivion had Dagon pushing his way through the barriers, attacking the masses with hordes of Deadra. Morrowind just didn't have the same sense of urgency, which gave an adventuring backdrop, over Oblivion's we-must-get-this-done-now backdrop.

Really? *Goes and boots up Daggerfall* *Creates Dunmer character* Huh. Looks like all the heads I have to choose from are all fire-eyed and ashen-blue toned.

No doubt you're referring to the fact that the 2d sprite for Barenziah was a regular human, as well as Morgiah and Helseth? But then why, in the same game, do we have http://www.imperial-library.info/dfbooks/b101_complete_barenziah.shtml that accurately depict Barenziah has having red eyes and dark skin? This is an issue of purest game mechanics. Beth forgot or couldn't be bothered with giving the nobility sprites appropriate textures. Quite a different scenario then the aforementioned jungles.

I personally would have loved some more politicy goodness. The politics were part of what helped make Morrowind memorable for me - and it added SO much to the lore angle. You really had to think about the goals of the authors behind the various books you were reading.

As stated before, hard to have political intrigue in this setting and story. In case you didn't realize, gates to what might as well be hell are popping up everywhere. So you think it'd be more 'immersive' and realistic if all the counts just tried to backstab each other in the middle of all this. Also, in a world where a random goddess can change the eye and skin color to an entire race, you think little bit of deforestation is a game-killer? Sure, it was abrupt and unexpected. Sure, it was a slight disappointment (although games with jungles tend to have problems, played Battlefield 2? You can't move in parts). But it did not kill the game, unless you are extremely shallow and will quit because of any reason. Since last night, I've started playing Morrowind to see what y'all are talking about, and I can definitely agree with you on some things, for example, the dungeons are much better than Oblivion's (not including SI), but the landscape was not as diverse as you made it out to be, nor was it more interesting than Oblivion's, being kinda dull colored and bleak, and sparse. I'm not saying it was bad, as I really loved Oblivion's landscape as I am apparently insane I suppose, and love terrible things.

Oblivion having no jungles is also game mechanics.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned that jungles hardly work in games as they tend to be a barrier to movement. IRL, you can step over every log and push away branches and tree shoots, but in games you cannot and if the Nibenay was a vast jungle in Oblivion, that and the mountains would've actually made Fast-Travel as necessary as some people believe it to be.

Except that Oblivion's absent jungles as mechanics represent an intentional and fundamental design change. Daggerfall's pale-skinned Dunmer royalty, as showcased right beside the information contained within the Complete Real Barenziah, is not an intentional and fundamental design change.

This is one of my lore pet peeves. Its not clear at all that Azura cursed the Dunmer as a whole, rather than just the Tribunal.

In the notes Vivec gives the Nerevarine before the assualt on Red Mountain , Vivec writes that Azura denied responsibility for the color-change of the Chimer/Dunmer. She claimed that it was the Tribunal's actions of stealing power from Lorkhan's Heart and setting themselves up as gods that caused it.

From "The Battle of Red Mountain" by Vivec:
...Azura said, "This is not my act, but your act. You have chosen your fate, and the fate of your people, and all the Dunmer shall share your fate, from now to the end of time. You think yourselves gods, but you are blind, and all is darkness."

Midasear, there are a few issues when you believe everything Vivec sasy literally, he is probably lying to your face. Now, when you dissect his account a bit, I see it as this.

A) Vivec is lying to your face
B) Azura is being really hubristic, did actually curse them, but isn't trying to take the blame and is blaming it on the Tribunal
C) All of the above

Well mass hysteria would seem a good answer.





Ah. Good you mention that. When people talk about the jungle and rainforest, they're not just talking about putting a different speed-tree package into Oblivion.

They're talking about everything that comes with that rainforest. Uncomplicated, self-sufficient, hearty, and extremely loyal Colovians and Nibeneans in garish costumes, bizarre tapestries, tattoos, brandings, and elaborate ceremony.
People forced into trade on because of a religious prohibition on manufacturing, a magocraty based on the need to defend against magic. An Imperial city that makes people think of Venice and Constantinople combined located on the Amazon river with more and stranger cults then Rome.

The Jungles are just the most obvious thing. Now I'm not even suggesting it should be an exact copy of what the PGE describes, but rather that the inspiration of it is used to create something that actually resembles the Capital of an empire spanning nine all rather alien nations.

They didn't have news coverage other than the Black Horse Courier and hearsay. Rome didn't go ballistic when Vesuvius erupted and destroyed two cities.

the problem is not that people didnt know what was happening. they knew, as indicated by the black horse courier, rumors, letters, etc. however, they acted as if having the entire royal family wiped out and being attacked by daedra hordes is an every-day occurrence.

discussions like this never get anywhere, so can we just please stop having them already?

Over limit and then some. <_<