Agreed. It's nice to know I'm not the only one on the Lore Forum who believes this.


Again, agreed, it's annoying.

There was some lore in Oblivion but there is nothing to explain Cyrodil's lack of politics (Before Oblivion Crisis) before and after the invasion. There is also no way to reasonably explain Cyrodil transforming from a jungle into mountains, forests, fields, and swamps but Morrowind did have more interesting lore.

Lore can be found in both Morrowind and Oblivion. The general (though by no means universal) consensus in the lore forum seems to be that the lore in Morrowind was of both greater volume and greater quality. It has been pointed out (in this thread, as well as others), that Oblivion (vanilla plus expansions) does genuinely does add to ES lore. Comparing the amount and quality of lore in Morrowind and Oblivion is obviously difficult to do in an wholly objective way. It's not like one can clearly enumerate the amount of lore Morrowind offered in mathematical terms, and compare that to the amount of lore Oblivion offered. (My personal feeling is that Morrowind offered more than Oblivion, but I want to defend Oblivion where it deserves defending.)

It's also important to recognize that Morrowind has been around longer than Oblivion, so there's been more time for people to search through all the information to be found in it. There were earlier comments in this thread to the effect that Morrowind explains what happened to the Dwemer. In a certain sense this is true, but it is also misleading. The general consensus among denizens of the lore forum as to what happened to the Dwemer is a result for discussion about the information in the game as well as obscure texts like Skeleton Man's interview which took place over an extended period of time. Discussions about the fate of the Dwemer still appear in the forums from time to time, and even if there is a general consensus as to what the answer is, the conversation (in all its aspects) is by no means closed. Similar observations can be made about discussions of the nature of the Tribunal, the meaning of CHIM, and the relation between Dunmer and Imperial culture. Yes, Morrowind provided lore about these issues, but what we presume to know about them is a result of synthesizing what was provided to us in the game with obscure texts, and then engaging in various discussions about those sources. As with the disappearance of the Dwemer, these other topics remain, to some extent, open questions where new information might be brought to bear.

What is interesting is that much of the discussion in the lore forum is focused on pre-Oblivion lore, and more specifically, Morrowind lore. There is lore in Oblivion, but it recieves too little attention, and the wrong type. Discussions of Oblivion lore very often devolve into (or clandestinely begin as) criticisms of Oblivion. This is very unfortunate, because I believe there is a lot within Oblivion worthy of speculation, debate, and discussion, quite independent of criticism about Oblivion. I surmise that the reason the lore in Morrowind has recieved more praise than the lore in Oblivion is that Morrowind even on the surface just looks different. Vvardenfell is a very alien environment, and from the very beginning of the main quest you find yourself a mystery: the sixth house cult, and your research into the sixth house is entagled with your learning about the Dwemer (the mysteries abound!). In Oblivion the environment if temperate and the plants mostly deciduous (even if there are really no seasons). All in all it seems very familiar - at least for people familiar with fantasy settings. Oblivion has the Ayleids, but they're mostly relegated to a small bit in the mage's guild quest and some side quests, so you can play through the game and hardly notice them. Oblivion has its own cult (the Mythic Dawn), but you really learn the role the Mythic Dawn plays in the plot long before you ever visit their Shrine. Mehrunes Dagon and the lesser Daedra under him are, from the very beginning, the antagonists, which quickly leads one to think of them as unabashadly and uninterestingly "evil." Of course if you look hard enough you discover a very complex relation between the Mythic Dawn, the Camorans, the Cyrodiilic Empire, and the Daedra. Just as well, the inference from the fact that Mehrunes is the antagonist of the story to him (and other Daedra) being simply evil is misplaced. Part of the purpose of the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes, Mankar Camoran's heterodoxical claims about Lorkhan, and his assault on the empire is to challenge the standard notions of who and what has rightful power, and what rightful power consists of. Mankar certainly does not consider either himself or Dagon evil, or to be doing something evil, and he presents a mythical worldview according to which the present balance of power is actually an abomination. Making matters even more complex is the fact that it is not entirely obvious (to me at least) that Mehrunes' plans (inasmuch as Mehrunes can be said to have plans) are really commensurate with Camoran's. Because Oblivion seemed familiar (even commonplace) on the surface, there was less incentive to really look deeper and try to figure things out. So whenever something was out of place, it was a developer blunder, and whenever something didn't appear to be sufficiently exlained, it was a lack of depth, care, and attention to detail.

There is lore in Oblivion and it could have been very interesting but Bethesda gave us very little in Vanilla Oblivion IMO. The thing is, Bethesda even admitted (I know there was an interview I heard about) to trying to remove originality from the game so we got far less lore then we could have and probably would have gotten. One major mistake was trying to make it seem like the Deadlands were every realm of Oblivion. Why do Peryite and Boethia have the same Deadric Realm as Mehrunes Dagon, and it is very clear that they made it appear as if the Shivering Isles was not a realm of Oblivion due to (seemingly) lazy writing for vanilla Oblivion and add that to the lack of politics in the entire game (The Oblivion crisis did end), the sudden change of lore (with no actual explanation), and the unexplained Mythic Dawn and it feels like Bethesda did not try at all with their lore for Oblivion.

summarize that, dumbkid, or gimme bullet points or something. It's too early for wall of text

actually it's like almost 2 but I woke up at like eleven. summer's cool. but i digresslol

Morrowind changed the colour of Dunmeri skin with no explanation! The point about Cyrodiil not being a jungle is invalid. And the Mythic Dawn was explained, as I've explained. There is just room for speculation which Morrowind did not provide as often.

Summarize? :blink:

Okay, here's a shot.

Morrowind and Oblivion both have lore.

Morrowind is on the surface more alien, which encourages the player to probe deeper.

Oblivion on the surface is more familiar, which discourages the player from probing deeper.

Consequently, the depth of lore in Oblivion is overlooked, and so people who are interested in lore compare it unfavorably to the depth of lore in Morrowind.

(Having said that, I'll qualify the above by stating that I also personally feel Morrowind had more to offer. But it's only fair to criticize as far as criticism is warranted.)

And dagerdude, you're exactly right that what you said is your humble opinion. And if I'm thinking of the right interview, I think what Todd said has been vastly aggrandized.

1) Morrowind's Dunmer had the same skin color as in Arena.

2) Cyrodil not being a jungle is valid.

3) I saw very little in the form of explanation for the Mythic Dawn. Just some random facts. Also, very little in Oblivion was left for speculation, IMO.

4) You ignored my comment about how Oblivion's poor writing convincing people that all realms of Oblivion look like the Deadlands. What is your opinion on this?

5) You also failed to respond to my comment about the lack of politics before and after the Oblivion crisis.

:mellow:

The leather armor of the bandits offended the proud steel of the marauders. The fort's name was chokey chicken, once the loneliest fort in Nibenay.

Also, the Daedra hierarchy and society is given much insight on if you remember speaking to Kathutet, in Camoran's Paradise. They Mythic Dawn hierarchy is likewise obviously there. You people are just not paying attention or haven't reached that far. Also, doing only the MQ means you won't find out much and the game will seem very quick, but this doesn't mean it is lacking in lore or story.

This is pretty much right then

I personally think that the game is heavily lacking in lore and story. To an extent it depends on what the player classifies as lacking lore and story. Someone would be wrong if they flat out said there is no lore in Oblivion but if they say that almost nothing has been added to give us more info on The Eight/ Nine Divines. You would also be incorrect to say that Oblivion had a much larger political part too it then Morrowind or Daggerfall due to the complete lack of politics in it.

It is a fact that Oblivion added some lore. It is not a fat that it added very detailed, interesting lore.

I never said there was more politics in Oblivion (kinda hard to have political intrigue in Oblivion's case anyways), and I personally find what lore that was in Oblivion to be very interesting, thank you very much. I too have opinions of my own.

A few comments.

2) Yes, Cyrodiil not being a jungle was a let down.
3) I find it interesting that you complain both that all you got about the Mythic Dawn was some random facts, and that very little in Oblivion was left for speculation. Usually you make room for speculation by obscuring some of the details.
4) Do people think that all of Oblivion is like the Deadlands? How many? This is a serious question, because I don't know the answer. It's also an empirical question, not something you can figure out through speculation. Having said that, making Peryites and Boethiah's realms look the same as Dagon's was unfortunate; however, the fact that Mankar mentions different Daedric realms (even if he gets them wrong), should have sparked people's attention. Also, seeing that Sheogorath is obviously a Daedric prince, I don't know why anyone would conclude the Shivering Isles was anything other than a realm of Oblivion. But I suppose that's an empirical question too.
5) Lack of politics is a fairly ubiquitous criticism of Oblivion. It does seem that Morrowind was more politically interesting, but I think there's more going on politically in Oblivion than naysayers are wont to give credit for. The main quest revolves around a political (though also mythical) question: what does it mean to be an emperor, and what does it mean to be an empire? The political relationship between the cities certainly did leave much to be desired, admittedly.

I agree with most of what dumbkid says. But honestly, you have to admit that while the developers could've added a bit more politics, Oblivion's story simply didn't allow for as much intrigue as Morrowind did. In Morrowind, the threat was not as clear and obvious, the crisis wasn't as evident, and the setting itself was highly divided between the various Houses and the Imperials. But in Oblivion, it's the Imperial heartland, and it'd seem very strange if people were busy scheming and backstabbing while Mehrunes Dagon was opening up gates to hell in front of every city.

Not to mention their explanation was "Tiber Septim did it". That would have occurred far before the other games but its a jungle in those.



I'ts kind of both that are a problem. There needs to be more details for they Mythic Dawn so we can make halfway decent speculations. Also, I was not complaining about the lack of speculation (coming from the lack of info), I was responding to Gallowglass who basically said almost everything was left open to speculation.



Earlier in this thread someone stated the Shivering Isles was not a realm of Oblivion, so yes Bethesda did a badjob on that. Before I realised it was a series I don't believe I knew that there was more then one realm of Oblivion. It took time studying lore elsewhere to figure that out.



The political relationship between the cities certainly did leave much to be desired, admittedly.- That was what I was complaining about when I said Oblivion had no politics.



Yeah there was, not with the realms of Oblivion but there was some room for the political side of things. Specifically some or all of the counts and countesses trying to lead Tamriel, the countess actually trying to remove the Argonians and Khajiits from any form of power, etc. There was a lot Oblivion could have done when it comes to politics as side quests of the main quest an while waiting for more info on the Mythic Dawn and their plans.

Very well said :thumbsup:

Edit: And to who it may concern, we are not being Oblivion apologists; we believe it gets more criticism than is due.

I think Morrowind did a better job with the lore than Oblivion did, but I've already said that. I still think the information we learn about the Mythic Dawn is substantial.



People misunderstand things, there's really no way to keep that from happening. And consider yourself as your own example: you did figure it out, and that's exactly the point.



"Left some to be desired" and "no politics" aren't the same thing. I don't think anyone disagreed with the former, only the latter.

But not the same as those in Daggerfall.



As the above is true, it is not.



You are contradicting yourself. And, as I have said where there is a considerable amount of information on the Mythic Dawn and have provided anolysis, that statement is also false.



Most people would have seen Morrowind as the good empire versus evil rebels, and you didn't blame poor writing then. It is the environment of both games that makes people think Morrowind was less generic, not the main quest.



Considering that the game begins during the Oblivion crisis, you can't say about the lack of politics then any more than I can reply to it. And after the Oblivion crisis, it would take an idiot to start a war or have a noble assassinated when everyone relies on each other.



That entirely depends on your opinion of what makes lore detailed and interesting. There was no more detail about the Dwemer than there is about the Ayleids - there's perhaps more on the Ayleids, as we know a few sentences in their language and a few grammar rules, as well as pronounciation, and also a lot more about Ayleid politics, society, and religion.

interesting is an opinion, detailed is not

Yes, people, will you kindly keep in mind that you cannot throw out the word "fact" without providing backup. No, not everything you believe is a fact. You just cannot throw that word around so easily. Just wanted to remind you all. Thank you for listening.

Cyrodiil not being a jungle is a valid criticism, because it contradicts previous lore which says it was (the 1st edition Pocket Guide). It's well known that the Pocket Guide isn't always wholly factual, but being misinformative about the environment of the capital region of an empire doesn't make much sense. Plus, the explanation for the change in the game, "Witness the home of the Red King once jungled," clearly implies that the PGE was speaking factually when it described Cyrodiil as a jungle. There's an extent to which contradictions and other absurdities can work in TES, but the explanation for Cyrodiil becoming a temperate forest is ad hoc. However, even if the explanation is ad hoc, it still works; so though undesirable, it's not the end of the world.

Owh c'mon that is [censored].

Martins ascension to the throne is about as political as a slightly dramatic act of collecting unemployment. Your dad gets killed, the angry trailer-park owner steels your fathers stamp card. You may or may not call upon the neighbours to help you get the stamp card back from his trailer. Then you see the welfare-officer, hand in your stamp card and you walk out with money. The police finds out you killed the trailer-park owner and raids the park, at which point your sacrifice yourself to safe the other people in the camp.

You can't honestly deride people for ignoring this and proceed to complain about a lack of political relation ships between the cities.

----

But this is all ignoring the proverbial elephant in the room. Oblivion did not answer the question of who the Imperial are beyond their generic racial blurb. This is not a question that can or should be answered by bullet point items, it's something that needs a short essay.

So does the change of Dunmeri skin colour.



It depends on how much detail you think is needed. I see no reason why people demand Mythic Dawn lore when we already have more than any secret Daedric cult trying to destroy the empire would actually make public.

That is a mistake in Daggerfall then but we are talking about Morrowind and Oblivion, not Daggerfall so don't go off topic.



Yes it is, Bethesda can't just change their lore, give no explanation, and then expect people not to complain about it.



I already said that I was not complaining about the lack of speculation. I was stating that I found very little room for reasonable speculation in response to you saying almost ever bit of that game's lore required speculation. Which gives me another complaint, not all the lore should be based around speculation. Some should be fact. Also, my opinion is that Bethesda did not do a good job explaining the Mythic Dawn and you think they did. Lets just agree to disagree.



Not really, and where does this good empire vs. evil rebels tie in. I thought you were stopping Dagoth Ur and if this is about Daggerfall stoop going off topic please. Also, my complaint was the bad explanation about the realm of Oblivion leading others to think that only the Deadlans (The gates you enter in vanilla Oblivion for the MQ lead there) to be the only type of realm of Oblivion. Not how generic everything was.



There are plenty of idiots that could have been ruling. Also, according to the official game guide the Oblivion Crisis does not kick off until you close the Kvatch gate. Also, with the emperor dead and most of the rulers not knowing there was an heir their was plenty of room for them trying to become the emperor/empress. Also, this could have been done after the main quest or during it as a side quest.



We have quite a bit of info on the Dwemer as you can see at http://dwemerstudies.wiwiland.net/ . Also, IMO, Oblivion's lore was not very detailed and in your opinion its lore was very detailed so lets agree to disagree on this.