:goodjob: What this guy said.

I felt the quests were sometimes too original, in that they felt scripted, and replay value was reduced. And I feel like there were better ways than level scaling to deal with the characters being overpowered, such as by limiting buffs, but then again, by the end of Morrowind, you are the reincarnation of a holy figure, you probably should be pretty strong.

What would have made Oblivion, in my mind, 100% a better game, is if all the enemies of the factions we played could have been joined. Necromancers, Imperial Watch, and Blackwood Company all should have been joinable. In Morrowind, the Camonna Tong and Dark Brotherhood were unplayable, but the Fighters Guild acted as a front for the CT (which you could subvert) and the DB was well replaced by not only another assassin's guild, Morag Tong, but by the Temple, Imperial Cult, and Imperial Legion.

Mages Guild the good guys? Ha! Against the law of Cyrodiil, the Mages Guild hunts down necromancers and discriminates against them due to an ancient feud. The corrupt and biased Mages Guild is not good and its actions have led to its fall. Didn't the "half the council of mages resigned when Traven became Archmage" comment mean anything? There is a split opinion on the guild's treatment of necromancy among mages and those who support the actions of the guild display an obvious bias. It's more political than good guys vs. bad guys.

It's called competition. It's nice to not have one faction have a monopoly on everything, as both the Fighters Guild and the Mages Guild try to do. It is isn't in the best interests of the Fighter's Guild to lose to competition that are more willing to complete certain contracts. It is also more political than good guys vs. bad guys.

Imperial Watch the bad guys? You lost me there, although certain members of the Imperial Watch/various Imperial guards are corrupt. The Thieves Guild is made up of thieves, and while they aren't the mafia, they aren't the good guys, but a twist that represents an unexpected part of what you would have thought about the Thieves Guild shouldn't be hated. They steal to live, not to be super evil thieves who just steal for the sake of being cool bad guys. So?

Being able to join the opposing factions would have been nice, but if you think that whatever side you join must be the good guy side, that's not the game's problem.

Let's take a look at another conflict, The Divine Crusader vs. Umaril. Is it good vs. evil? No, not really, at least not if people bother to look up lore instead of just accepting the "Oblivion has no lore" crap that gets thrown around. It's about an angry, half-Elven demigod seeking revenge on the gods who helped an Elf/Khajiit-murdering, mankind-loving maniac who goes on homicidal rampages in which he destroys indiscriminately destroy him and his people while being faced with that maniac's successor, the second Divine Crusader and the future Sheogorath(madness is a part of both jobs).

You're right about the mage's, but not about the Fighter's here. A guild or union is a monopoly. The force out the competition, or force them to join. Since the guilds are chartered by the Imperial government, they're rock solid and can overturn town governments that piss them off.

They've gotta take the kid gloves off the thieves guild.

They can, but that doesn't mean it's right just because it's legal and that therefore, they must be the good guys. Let's take a look at EA's way of handling used games, for example. If anything, the actual showing of a guild mainaining its monopoly by attacking competition makes the whole situation with the Blackwood company seem more grey. Both groups are essentially mercenaries, but the Fighters Guild is bound by Imperial standards of conduct for both public and legal appearance. The Blackwood company is not bound by the same standards and the Fighters Guild can't stand losing out on business, so naturally and legally, they try to get rid of the competition while still trying to appear as the good guys for it.

I agree that the Thieves Guild should be more criminal in nature, but thieves still steal, and I don't consider stealing a good action. The Imperial Watch protects people. Which is better morally, despite the Robin Hood tone of the Thieves Guild? The Renrijra Krin seems to take care of smuggling in Cyrodiil, however, which I do believe should at least be part of the Thieves Guild's job.

I'd think generally that by enforcing that standard, they aren't the good or bad guys. They're both, and worse.

They steal and put it back, and mess with tax records of poor people. On the other hand, the town watch needs to become the county sheriff and his deputies. So, more like the Sheriff of Nottingham for the guards, more like Jesse James for the Thieves.

Nearly every questline in Oblivion was good vs evil.


Stealth, I agree with, but combat? That depends on how much you like traditional RPG's. Character skill is far better than player skill in an RPG.


What?


Every random bandit in the game having super-rare, super-expensive glass armour and daedric weaponry is a good thing?


I know that I far preferred Morrowind's quests about a corrupt Mage's guild leader was far more interesting than "Kill big bad necromancer".


AI =/= alive feeling. Most characters have no personality in Oblivion, because they have 3 topics. 10 max.

I don't believe I've ever saw you admit to some kind of bad direction Oblivion has taken. I've seen you, many times, calling people trolls and fan boys and flamers just because they prefer a system of Morrowind's though. Every game of Bethesda's, just like pretty much every other game out there, has some kind of problem. No game is perfect. Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, all have certain qualities that make them awesome, but all have immense problems.

Arena is very cliché and linear, Daggerfall is unnessecarily large and a tad too much randomisation is used, Morrowind is too small, and too buggy, Oblivion has tried to use many new aspects badly (AI, Voiced Dialogue, etc.).

On the other hand...

Arena is a great start to the series that lays out the basic lore of the series, Daggerfall really emphasizes the scale of Tamriel, and emphasizes corruption. Morrowind adds vastly to the lore, uses non-cliché themes amazingly and gave us control of the development tools. Oblivion improved on stealth, and lets me hide well and let's me have more control in facegen (though poorly implemented, imo) and gave us even more control of the development tools.

This is much of my problems and likes of each game. As you can see, none is perfect, but all have good qualities. Be willing to admit problems in the series, else we'll never be able to advance.

Anyway, this is straying far off topic. This isn't a Morrowind vs Oblivion topic, this is the complete opposite of that.

Not to beat this too much further, as things are straying a bit too far already, but I couldn't let this one pass: "actually learning by use". How is this different between MW and OB? The levelling systems for your character are very similar (aside from the reduction from Major/Minor/Misc skills to only Major/Minor), you improve your skills in BOTH games through use, and get higher "multipliers" for those Attributes which are affected by those skills.

As for "actually retaining a challenge at higher levels", the difference is that OB's overall degree of challenge never changed, unless you constantly got higher or lower multipliers than "normal" during level-up, whereas Morrowind had a higher degree of difficulty at low level if you strayed into more inhospitable areas (it was "controllable" that way), but got ridiculously easy after around level 20 or so. One system worked properly for 20 levels, then fell apart, whereas the other was only half-broken for the entire game. That's certainly different, but not much of an "improvement" in my opinion, more like a lateral move for most, and a step up or down for the various "niche" groups.

I found that many of MW's joinable factions had some very interesting background stories behind them, with a little bit of interaction between some of the guilds and factions, but a mix of good and boring quests. You usually had the option of bypassing some of the quests by taking others instead (at least one ranking NPC even tells you to ignore orders that you feel are questionable), and there were places where you had to side with one faction or the other, WITH CONSEQUENCES. OB's factional stories were pretty much "OK", but totally isolated from everything else, which made them feel like they weren't really part of the world in some respects. You had no choices that mattered (you typically got the reward either way), and you had to do all of the quests to continue the plotline. It may not have been "linear", but it was a set of parallel linear questlines with no alternatives. It was better in some ways, and worse in others, but it certainly didn't feel "more alive" (as you put it) to me.

There were positive changes, as well as negative ones, between each of the past games, as all but a few hardcoe fanatics will freely admit. The trick is sorting out which changes were "keepers", and which ones need to be rethought for the next title(s) in the series.

Yeah, just for my opinion, Morrowind felt more like a living world because of the simplicity of the quests.

Lots of gopher jobs for the early ones, and meetings to negotiate for the later ones, just like if you really did volunteer to work for a house. And you only learn the interesting details if you make an effort to educate yourself. It's not like in Oblivion, where some elf sprays a bunch of exposition in your face.

Morrowind requires you to think for yourself, which is why it's hard to get into if you started with Oblivion, which does all your thinking for you.

Oblivion was more of a scripted spectacle. A lot more entertaining in a "flashy" sort of way. But also a lot less engaging. I didn't feel like I as in a real world. I was constantly being beaten over the head by the fact that I'm being taken through a little mini-movie and I guessed how it was gonna end before it ended, because it was predictable.

And I didn't get to craft my own story like in Morrowind.

A lot of times, Oblivion's guild quests insulted my intelligence just because of how "in-my-face" they were.

"OMG! Those notes weren't really from Lucien????" "LOL!"
What svcks is that I disagreed with Lucien's written orders and went out of my way to kill him just to discover he's one of those obnoxious essential NPC's. I hated how Oblivion constantly punished me for trying to be creative and enjoy the game my way. When that's all Morrowind was about.

In Morrowind, you're on open terrain, driving where you please. In Oblivion, you're trapped in a monorail, being led on a track. Constantly looking out the window at all the possibilities that could have been reality, if only the devs hadn't scripted Oblivion to death.

urgh, morrowind fanatics tearing oblivion apart as usual.

Another believer in the "Oblivion's flaws can't be mentioned" philosophy, I see.

Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth[billionth] time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

They felt too unique to me - why was it that everytime I got sent off on an errand it unfolded into some dramatic murder mystery or adventure into some bizarre painting/dream world? These moments can prove memorable, but to truly evoke the atmosphere of daily life and, more noticeably, the vocational aspect of guilds, you need some of Morrowind's more mundane quests here and there.


You're free to tear apart Morrowind, you know. Just for the record, us Morrowind fanatics have gone about our lives being forced to breathe ash and getting attacked by Cliff Racers every three minutes. We're a hardy, aggressive bunch. Like the Dunmer. Whom were suicidally depressingly boring in Oblivion to me, by the way.

Too unique? That's an... interesting one. I, for one, had enough mundane quests. It was about time they became something interesting, in my opinion. What I would like to see in my ideal Elder Scrolls game would be all the interesting types of quests I loved in Oblivion along with some randomly-generated mundane quests such as the ones of Daggerfall in factions. Perhaps after gaining the trust of the higher ups through doing enough mundane quests and having high enough stats to gain a decent rank, they approach you and let you in some of the faction's troubles and then let you join in on a questline such as those of Oblivion while still allowing you to do more mundane quests(due to being randomly-generated). Oblivion sort of did something like this in the Fighters Guild, but the more mundane quests were too few in number. Still, too interesting sounds like an invalid argument to me. I would prefer side quests such as those you just find and are unrelated to guilds to be interesting and I want the same for faction quests, but I could see mundane tasks complementing these other quests, but I will never argue with originality. A landmass twice the size of Oblivion's would help make the random-generation more viable and shouldn't be too difficult for Bethesda to achieve. Morrowind's originality was in its setting, Oblivion's was in its quests.

Personally, as unpopular as the idea might seem, I would just love to see the entire realms of The Elder Scrolls accessible. It would be a programming nightmare, and more than likey left to modders, but I would love to explore ALL of it.

I was watching the Mrs. playing with the Elsweyr mod for Oblivion, and it was fabulous. To see modding folk literally open up and populate the once closed off areas, is phenominal. In the face of such things as that, why still banter over what should have/could have been? Understandable, for those on platforms and only on such, the options are limited. But if you delve into the mods, even just a little, the game as you know it is often changed forever.

Bethesda/Zenimax struck gold when they included a Construction Set in with their games, and from a business perspective, this is likened to genius. Think on this:

Their game is created fairly interesting, with the personal option to "make it your own" through modding.

With a wealth of lore, and relying on the natural curiosity and skill sets of talented players, you are encouraged to modify the game, and encouraged to share it.

Control is masterfully maintained, as everything you create for the game(that can be legally shared) is intellectual property of Bethesda in the end. There will be no "pay for my mods because they rock" happening.

With each module offered, you are able(read encouraged) to modify it with all the things we argue about here.

Newcomers or "on the fencers" of the Elder Scrolls Games are enticed when they read, see, or experience the game from watching what others have done with it and can do with it. This ensures that a game that was created eight years ago is still sought out for purchase, regardless of the ability of some to have gotten it from the covers of gaming or computer magazines.

Bones, if you will, are even thrown to those who never experience the play of it on the PC, but a few via the DL for you platform system.

The open-ended immersive play still attracts, even when people break away from it to try all the latest offerings. Nothing spoils an adventure more than knowing that once you are done, the credits roll, the music plays, and the option to do it again will still yield the same limited adventure. Knowing full well that you can finish the main quest, yet still have things to look forward to often makes existing players forgoe the main quest altogether, in favor of doing the extraneous adventures and getting to it, "whenever".
Or sometimes not at all.


Whatever they decide to do for their next adventure, if held to these same recipes that still have people seeking out their older offerings, in the end, we'll still be the better for it.


Honestly, how many here bought Dragon Age purely because they honeslty believed that the promotional cinematic that was shown on TV was going to be how the game was going to be played? I know many who did and were very put-off by it not being remotely like that. With Bethesda at least, even if they try new or untried, if they keep to encouraging you to do it your own way, we will still be better off in the end.

Morrowind was better due to it's originality.

Oblivion was better due to it's AI.

Morrowind is the lore-player's dream. The guy who loves to delve into the game and just get...lost.

Oblivion is the power-gamer's dream. Always tough fights and it leads you by the nose so you never get lost...

Morrowind's setting was more original, Oblivion's quests were more original.

Morrowind's lore was larger in written amount than Oblivion's, Oblivion's lore was larger in actual events and visuals than Morrowind's.

Both are open-world, lore-filled Elder Scrolls games that are the dreams of this guy who loves to get lost in games.

TES V will be different than both of them, but it will also be lore-filled, open-ended, and original in some sense as BOTH, not one, its most recent predecessors.

I disagree about quests, pal. Misc. quests: For sure! Factions, definitely not! Sorry, Seti18, but I won't lie. Oblivion factions were dull and drab.

Go kill some rats.

Go solve a problem with rats, end up trying to save them for some crazy rat-lover, find a mountain lion in the basemant, go hunt the mountain lions outside the city, finish off one last mountain lion, and receive your reward. If the rats die, you fail.

The overall story archs are very sad... Kill necromancers? Defeat an enemy fighters' guild? Be an emo puppy-kicker?

Versus?

Discover the corruption in the upper echelon of one of the ruling houses of Morrowind? Find out the secrets to why the Dwemer are gone? Complete a task the daedric princes made long ago, by going to the four corners of the House of Troubles?

Morrowind's actual faction stories were very subtle and in the background rather than major points. Many of the actual quests have nothing to do with those subtle backgrounds and are nothing special. If you like Morrowind's stories and quests better, by all means, don't let me stop you, but the assumption that Morrowind is more original and better for lore-lovers gets thrown around as if it were always a fact just as my more original quest claim gets thrown around by me as if it were a fact, and you disagree with my statement as I disagree with yours, no? Of course, summarizing stories as "killing necromancers" is an easy way to make stories seem boring. What I hated is that I couldn't defend the necromancers, due to the whole backstory, but there is more to it than "killing necromancers".

Seti, if I could side with either faction on that and work through the necromancer ranks, I'd be all for Oblivion. And if we had guild-conflict. I've had tons of characters, who would love to delve into the 'evil arts'. Or if I could join Blackwood company.


The backstory to killing necromancers?

We kicked them out of the guild. One got mad and hit a Mages' Guild member. We went gustapo and decided to hunt them down. Mannimarco comes to town. We have to kill Mannimarco, because he's OMGZORZEVIL!


Backstory to Blackwood Company?

They came to town and are more efficient than we are. However, they cause more ruckus. They're stealing our jobs! Kill them all!


Backstory to Thieves' Guild?

We like to help the poor and screw over the Watch!


Backstory to Dark Brotherhood?

We like to worship Sithis and slaughter puppies!




Notice the difference?

If we're just talking about actual in-game main quest lore (And Morrowind has far better lore books than Oblivion, I don't think anyone can deny that), in Morrowind, I learned about Dunmeri culture and tradition, and learned about ancient clans and corruption. I learned how the Tribunal came to be gods, thier questionable methods, and the mindset of Dagoth Ur. I learned how the Dunmer used to live, what happened to them, and how Ur wants to restore the Dunmer to thier ancient glory.

In Oblivion, I learned that Daedra are bad, and people can explode to make dragons. I didn't even see anything about Imperial culture. I mean, we had thier jungle obnoxiously taken away from us, and all the architecture was just boring. I wanted to see huge forts, with towers I can't see the top of, and a highly militarised culture full of corruption. Instead, I got happy clichéness. Everything was bright and shiny, and those in poverty where just there for Thieves Guild quests. The Imperial City, heart of the empire, didn't even have a single piece of imperial architecture. Everything was Aylied. What the hell? And I expected to be mugged whenever I went into a dark alley. Guess what? all I found where nobles roaming the streets. That's another point! Nearly everyone was a noble. There was no poverty or corruption that adds to the atmosphere and culture of every race.

Come on, even Bethesda have admited that Oblivion was created to appeal to the masses. They wanted to reach out to a wider range of audiences. Lore and in depth quests don't appeal to the masses.

Another Morrowind vs Oblivion...And the winner is DAGGERFALL.
This thread is about what good Bethesda should take from Oblivion and Morrowind and what they should learn to not do in TES V not Morrwind vs Oblivion.

I spy a voice of reason.

BURN IT!