I do not believe for a second that consoles are bringing gaming down, and I do not believe for a second that Skyrim is style over substance.

To me, Skyrim is what happens when you combine style and substance. Morrowind and Oblivion were substance, and no style (and great games for it), but Skyrim is that same substance (and even more in many areas) combined with a great sense of style (and better than Morrowind and Oblivion for it).

Kinda this. I find a lot of the OP to be head-scratch-worthy, especially the part about Oblivion getting the UI right. Wha? It's almost as bad as Skyrim's and an example of what not to do.

Sigh. This world has gone to [censored]. Let me guess you love Halo and CoD. Counterstrike and Quake were just substance-- no style. Dota is vastly inferior to LoL, and Starcraft is an awful game with no style.

These are sad, sad times...

You are a very arrogant person. It's utter stupidity to think someones beneath you for playing on a different system.



Thats not cliche, that's taking others people ideas for inspiration and turning them into your own creation. By your logic, every movie, game and book is cliche.


wait...you think the world has gone to [censored] because of console gaming? I....just wow. Go outside or read a newspaper or something.

LOL, if by "different" you mean a limited P.O.S. machine that that can't outperform my mother's Dell? Then, yes, I suppose I'm arrogant. Keep on drinkin' that Kool-Aid. If you want to play Lego-Harry Potter, then fill your boots my friend I don't insult console users, I insult the console. Sorry you took this so personally.

morrowind should definitely be remade into uptodate graphics. dialogue NOT complemented by voice allowed more information on the world we were in. specifically on what we were doing, or what we were facing. not to mention the quests didnt need to pinpoint the exact location and objective since dialogue could be long enough to just normally describe them. morrowind factions and houses gave out quests that actually worked in tandem with other faction/houses to shape the world around us by limiting guild/house choices

another older gamer signing in

While i think skyrim is a pretty immersive game and ,is a great rpg game ( if you want this to be a rpg game and you are not powergaming)
and while there been several other great rpg games on pc , baldur s gate series , pool of radiance , and others ,
Nothing really beats good old fashion pen and dice RPGs
No game can create the same atmosphere or social aspect of those sort of RPG s
And while i am 45 i still got a group of RPGs going every 2 weeks ( mostly dark heresy or Shadowrun) , i feel lucky

I don't think so , he's actually honestly stating the truth from his point of view and given his experience of gaming .

He 's just as sincere as you are in his opinion , it just happens that you don't agree with him , he's not alone , there are millions of gamers who hold this opinion

And by the way , the fact that consolization dumbs down the game is not even for debate , it is a documented fact well known in the industry and among developpers , just type consolization in google and read the articles .

Video games concepts evolve extremely slowly on consoles for a reason , the 360/ps3console hardware is outdated since it is out and is a severe factor of limitation (1 gig of ram for god's sake , what do you want to do with that , a 5 year old low end graphic card , a controller with limited amount of buttons and no precision , basically multiplatform games are made to fit the lowest common denominator , which is ... console hardware , instead of taking advantage of the power , memory and possibilities of the modern pc hardware )

Also the console market itself is very closed , very few innovations in the game concepts and guaranteed sales even for mediocre games as long as they are well advertised and have a minimum of content in them ... the consequences of this phenomenon is that developpers are reluctant to improve their concepts and make ambitious projects , instead they rather want to release as many games as possible every year to cash in ( Ubisoft , EA style ) . Making a Quality product cost a lot of money , time and investment , whereas using this time to make 2 average products in record time and tailored for consoles is a much better prospect for money making as long as they look better than the previous game ... this is the current reality . It was NOT the case 10 years ago . I'm 31 , i 've seen all the industry evolve since 25 years , i'm not saying you should change your opinion , but you should definetely try to understand why we old timers (sry if i sounds arrogant , it's not ) hold this view . There are exceptions though .. for instance the GTA series ..

I really hate the elitist attitude that states that particular genres of games are "inferior" to others.

But, if you must know - No, I don't "love" Halo, or Call of Duty.

I don't like first person shooters, at least not of the Halo variety (it was alright, but I didn't find it to be anything special, and I've never owned a Halo game), and while Call of Duty is the style of shooter I like, I thought it was a pretty damn awful implementation of the genre that was way too arcadey for my tastes.

I don't even know what Dota and LoL are, and I hope you're being sarcastic when you say that Starcraft is an awful game, but the intent of your sarcasm is way off base considering that 1.) I said Morrowind and Oblivion were amazing games WITHOUT style and 2.) Skyrim is an amazing game because it COMBINED style AND substance.

I am not a fan of "all style, no substance" games. I will take substance over style any day of the week, I believe that Skyrim succeeds because it successfully implements both.

But since my gaming tastes are of such importance to you:

01. Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
02. Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
03. Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
04. Fallout 3
.
.
.
.
-Star Wars Galaxies*
-Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
-Fallout: New Vegas
-Civilization 3**
-StarCraft
-Tribes
-Battlefield 2
-Counterstrike
-Hitman
-Metal Gear Solid***
-Final Fantasy
-Final Fantasy VII
-Chrono Trigger
-GoldenEye (N64)
-X-Men Legends
-Sports titles (NFL 2K5, NBA 2K, MLB 2K, Madden NFL)

* = Pre-Combat Upgrade and all following gameplay changes
** = The only PC Civilization I've played, I haven't played any Civ games before or after Civ 3. Only other one I've played is Civilization: Revolutions on X-Box 360
*** = Metal Gear (NES), Snake's Revenge (NES), Metal Gear Solid (PS1), Metal Gear Solid 2 (PS2) - I haven't played very deeply into Metal Gear Solid 3, and I haven't played Metal Gear Solid 4 at all.

^ A list of my all time favorite games. 1-4 are numbered, because, well, those are my favorite games of all time, in that order. The rest aren't numbered because, well, they alternate depending on my mood. But for the most part, it's roughly in order. And no, that's not an all inclusive list - I'm sure there's plenty of other "favorites" that I've left off that list that I can't remember off the top of my head. I've played a lot of games in my 28 years of life.


I've played a lot of RPG's on various systems, both console and PC alike, and while RPG is definitely my favorite genre of game, I am very picky about my RPG's.

Neverwinter Nights, if it's what I'm thinking of, I played, but not for long, because I didn't like the turn based system. And games like Baldur's Gate just never really captured me. Baldur's Gate felt like Diablo... which is fine, but doesn't offer me what I'm looking for in an RPG.

You can check above to see a list of some of my favorite RPG's. Though they aren't all listed, I've been playing RPG's pretty much my entire life, with my first experience being Dragon Warrior on the NES. Well, unless you count The Legend of Zelda as an RPG.

I'm very particular about my RPG's, and as such, the entire JRPG genre is pretty much thrown out in my eyes. Except for the rare exception, like a Chrono Trigger, or a couple of the Final Fantasy games, I think JRPG's are absolute [censored].

I like the type of RPG's that give me full control over my character. Bethesda and BioWare are my 2 favorite developers because their RPG's allow me that control, albeit both in different ways.

Oblivion had a great interface???

Nell2ThaIzzay

there is no point in arguing, we both enjoy different types of games and format, you have your opinion I have mine and neither is wrong, only biased.
Its like wine, I like a nice sauvignon blac, you might be a merlot type of guy, and these types of discussions go no where becuase of it, you have made your point chillax dude.

[quote name='Nell2ThaIzzay' timestamp='1323331220' post='19691241']
I couldn't disagree more with your assessment.

Thanks for taking the considerable time and effor to argue your counter opinion- I fully respect what you say because of it.

However, respect is not the same as agreement.

Yes it was a tedious business getting to places in Morrowind which were off the silt-strider tracks. That's not to say it was not valid that to get to somewhere the first time you actually had to work out that you turned right over the hill once past the dwarven ruins instead of running into the sea and swimming past the cliff. You also took wrong turnings and found something you were not looking for. That is true to life, gives you more access to otherwise unknown parts of the game and protracted even the most dogged main-quest-line player's experience to something with more of an epic feel. You stumbled into more things in Morrowind. In Oblivion you just did what you were told and finished before getting into double figures- blinking unebelievably at how quickly it was done. I'm used to (given my age) main quest lines which occupy the vast majority of the gameplay time. Having solid, plentiful and engaging side quests, some of which are more fascinating, dark and intricate than the main quest, creates an aura around the gaming world. Who cares about some precious heirloom or an act of petty revenge when the world's about to end? Just about everyone. If an asteroid were about to hit the planet, forget about all humanity pulling together to solve the crisis- there would even be people making money and political capital out of it!

The most tedious thing I found about getting lost in Morrowind was the endless cliff racer attacks.

What the old text adventures had was the need for you to think about what to do or say in situations. You had to 'wait' three times (iirc) to get out of the goblin's dungeon. The trouble with this was choosing the right wording that would be recognised by the program. Morrowind gave you a list of topics to talk about- close but not quite perfect 10. The best part of Morrowind in this event was that you did not get large signs appearing telling you what to do. You had to work it out most of the time.

Dumbing down makes dumber. Look at WOW- each upgrade reduces the complexity of questing and the wikkis are required reading if you are to be accepted into a group as not knowing a fight marks you as a 'noob'. I like to puzzle things out for myself. Success is a main driving force in the human mind- failure is underrated as a useful learning tool.

I wasn't arguing with you. You mentioned you had wondered what types of RPG's I've played, and I told you. I didn't realize that responding to your query constituted "arguing".

Yes, Like in Zelda. How many times can you save the princess? How many games does it take to save the princess? Pure quality.

I think that RPG 'purists' (not 'ellitists') are a little disapointed with Skyrim because, and I agree, it is dumbed down. This doesn't make it a bad game, far from it.

I played DnD years ago, it was great. However, playing a video game with combat mechanics based on the D6 or D20 rules and watching it in realtime is god awful now. Playing it on PnP is great, having your GM tell you you've hit or missed with your arrow is better than manually aiming a bow with an arrow nocked, launching it and watching it miss because your roll failed knowing full well that your aim was perfect (this was the worse thing about Morrowind for me. If Morrowind had Oblivion's and Skyrim's combat system it would have been a perfect game. And I do have Morrowind on the PC so if there is a mod for this, then please tell me where I can find it).

Yes, I'm an oldie, I used to play on an Atari 2600 where the only two colours were black and white, and the controllers had one button.

Well I guess it's a good thing I don't play, and don't like, WoW

Thing is - I agree 100% with what you said about Morrowind, about the adventures, the journey, the getting lost and encountering unintended things.

Thing is - I believe all of that exists in Skyrim as well. Maybe not so much Oblivion, but yea, even Oblivion too.

See, when it comes to Skyrim, I don't fast travel. I mean, sometimes I use the carriage system to get to a town across the map, but I don't use the fast travel system. Because if I fast travel, I can't have those experiences like you spoke about.

But even with quest arrows and map markers, you better believe, without using the fast travel system, I have had those adventures in Skyrim. It was my first such adventure that made me realize I was playing a successor to Morrowind. The first time I made the trip from Winterhold to Whiterun, I encountered plenty of those "unexpected" encounters, and had that sense of journey, and many times in my adventures through Skyrim, I have taken that wrong turn and stumbled across something I didn't expect to.

Because here's the way I look at it. Yes, the quest arrow tells me that my destination is to the south west, but that's all it does. It doesn't tell me how to get past the obstacles between me, and my location in the south west. It doesn't tell me how to get over that mountain. Do I go over it? Is there a path that leads me through it? Do I need to go around it? Do I need to go out of my way in the opposite direction to find another road?

So many times, I make a turn in the road thinking it's the way I need to go, but hey! That road actually took me to a dead end. Instead of being the road to where I needed to get to, this road actually led me to a bandit hideout. But it's not just any standard bandits. It turns out these specific bandits have been hijacking trade caravans coming through the area. All of a sudden, I've begun a mini-quest.

Or... as I'm going through the mountains, on my way to my destination, I encounter another bandit camp. But again, it's not just any bandit camp. Their hideout is just outside the location of a legendary artifact. By coming to this camp, I've learned of this legendary item, and now I'm off venturing for that item.

All that stuff you talk about in Morrowind, it is in Skyrim. I've experienced it. Those examples up above are just but a couple examples of my experiences.

I bought a dragon claw off of a shopkeeper. She didn't know what it was for. So it's been a personal quest of mine to find out what it's for. In my quest to figure it out, I still haven't found the location that I'm looking for, but my search has had me find a bunch of other memorable experiences and encounters.

I just can't agree that sense of quest and adventure is gone.

As far as how quickly Oblivion was done - it's only as quick as you make it. It took me 5 years, and a final 90 hour playthrough to finish the main quest of Oblivion.

Sure, it's short if you just plow right through it. But you're not necessarily meant to. It took me a 90 hour playthrough to finish the main quest of Oblivion, and it took me 90 hours to finish the main quest of Skyrim.

I don't know. I don't want to say this in a way that's condescending because you have articulated your points well, and you've done so without insulting gamers who disagree with you, and I appreciate that and respect that, so know that this isn't intended to be condescending.

But where many people claim that Oblivion and Skyrim "hold your hand", those games don't hold my hand because I don't let them. I know that map markers and quest arrows are there, but those don't take away from my journey. Those arrows and markers don't tell me how to overcome the obstacles between me and my objective. It's still up to me to figure out how to get to that quest marker, just like in Morrowind it's up to me to figure out how to get to the big yellow blocks on my map. I know there's a fast travel system in place, but I don't use it, because it will take away from the experience I am looking for in Skyrim. Some of the best experiences I've had in Skyrim have come from just journeying from point A to point B, and experiencing the world, and everything it had to throw my way.

Black Isle Studios > Bioware > All the rest.

Cheers!

Nell2ThaIzzay
I've played a lot of RPG's on various systems, both console and PC alike, and while RPG is definitely my favorite genre of game, I am very picky about my RPG's.

Neverwinter Nights, if it's what I'm thinking of, I played, but not for long, because I didn't like the turn based system. And games like Baldur's Gate just never really captured me. Baldur's Gate felt like Diablo... which is fine, but doesn't offer me what I'm looking for in an RPG.

You can check above to see a list of some of my favorite RPG's. Though they aren't all listed, I've been playing RPG's pretty much my entire life, with my first experience being Dragon Warrior on the NES. Well, unless you count The Legend of Zelda as an RPG.

I'm very particular about my RPG's, and as such, the entire JRPG genre is pretty much thrown out in my eyes. Except for the rare exception, like a Chrono Trigger, or a couple of the Final Fantasy games, I think JRPG's are absolute [censored].

I like the type of RPG's that give me full control over my character. Bethesda and BioWare are my 2 favorite developers because their RPG's allow me that control, albeit both in different ways.




From these comments we have different personal values to what constitutes enjoyment and controll, stated previously you do not feel that consoles are dumbing down games, I do, in fact I would say the magority of them are copies with varying asthetic differences, you do not like JRPG, I have realy enjoyed most JRPG I have played, I asume (knowing very little) that you have been a predominantly console player, I have not, I had an atari and a PS3 wich I just sold, we obviously do not like the same games, using NWN1 as an example.
You will not change my mind about these facts, I will not yours as both arguments are entirely biased with no logical reasoning, its all conjecture and baseless with no right or wrong. yes i could quote specs, and hardware, but thats only part of the difference, not the whole.

I just have to comment on this. I never played Baldur's Gate, but I did play Icewind Dale, which is basically a smaller Baldur's Gate, and...

DIABLO and BALDUR'S GATE being at all similar?! What madness is this?!

I began to enjoy it more once I parked my disappointment and realized that Skyrim is not an RPG but an action/adventure game.

For gaming depth I will look elsewhere.

^ This.

No, I'm not, and haven't been a predominantly console player.

I've mainly been a PC player. My current console gamer status is for a number of reasons, one being my old gaming laptop blew up on me, and I didn't have the means to replace it, an X-Box 360 was bought for me for my birthday one year, and it was much simpler for me to re-buy games like Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, etc... on console than it was for me to replace my gaming PC.

I now own a laptop that would be capable of running Skyrim, but I still chose X-Box 360 for ease of use. This new laptop is Windows 7, and has been nothing but a hassle for me when attempting to install and run all my PC games on it. I want to play the game, not fight with my system just to get it to work.

So I have recently become a predominantly console gamer, because it's much more user friendly, and allows me to spend more time playing the game, instead of spending more time just getting the game to work.

But prior to the past couple years, I have been predominantly a PC gamer, though I have always owned consoles, and have had at least one console from every generation going back to the original NES.

The best RPG I ever played was Gothic 1. Before that it was Fallout 2.

The TES series never even got close to Gothic 1 because they emphasize quantity over quality. Great graphics and huge worlds which end up being just boring.

In Gothic, every cave had a reason for it to be there and every ancient tomb had a history behind it and you got it from npc conversations. In the Bethsda games, they don't, they just dot the map and have some baddies inside to keep the player busy and even after you clear it, the loot is horrible (seen it a lot in Fallout 3 as I ended up actually wasting common ammo and not getting anything out of 90% of dungeons).

Gothic had a way of giving superior loot to the player. The armors were few in types but getting a new armor was an epic feat as you only got a new armor at key moments, usually when changing chapters or joining an in-game faction, and joining a faction was a very deep and important moment not like the wattered down way in Skyrim where you can be a ridiculous jack of all trades.

Comparing Gothic with Morrowind at that time, is like comparing a fine whine with pepsi. Both can quench a thirstand you can drink a ton of pepsi without keeling over but...really, it's not the same thing.

This is exactly why I prefer to play on the 360 instead of my PC as well

A game that is entirely spoken by actors, and then translated into umpteen languages = a game that is linear.

Technology may eventually change that, or some brave publisher/dev might decide that they don't need to voice *everything*.

Otherwise, the publishers will demand acted lines, the writers will have a budget of '50 lines of text for a quest', and there really isn't a whole lot that they can do with that.