Morrowind was how I stepped into Nirn... and when I moved to Oblivion, I was... how shall I put it? Disappointed. It seemed so mundane, so generic! What happened to the exotic and unearthly environments? The hostile attitude and the complex, inter-racial tensions? The food and drinks with names I can't pronounce? The shock of being assaulted by a screeching pterodactyl? The ash-storms, the desolate wastelands, the towering mushrooms, the secrecy and intrigue? Tamriel had felt like a wondrous, dreamlike realm in Morrowind, and Cyrodiil did nothing but remind me of the forests of my own continent. I'm not saying I wanted to see everything that was in Morrowind replicated in Cyrodiil, but I would have loved an environment that was just as alien, and a culture that was just as unique. Instead, we got fantasy-land #156.

Such a shame.

In lore Cyrodiil IS unique, exotic, varied, full of politics and power-playing. It's just Cyrodiil version from Oblivion that is boring.

And that's the main reason I don't care for Oblivion. I can't explicitly say anything in Oblivion was a critical design flaw on its own. Nothing seemed completely idiotic in Oblivion unless I compared it to Daggerfall/Morrowind. As its own game, it's fine.

The gameplay is alright, and even the reduced number of skills and guilds aren't too big of a deal - I can't say I ever explicitly became frustrated at being unable to do something in OB that I could do in MW, as an example. Oblivion's gameworld doesn't really demand levitation - for example Cyrodiil's landscape is largely crossable with little obstacle, you can head from Point A to Point B in a relatively straight line. Oblivion's dungeons also have a lot more verticality, and with levitation you'd definitely be able to skip too many areas.

What makes me dislike Oblivion is its execution. Did Bethesda really expect us to believe Tiber Septim turned Cyrodiil into a jungle? Was that meant to be a playful last minute writeup by MK, or if they were expecting everybody to take it seriously. Did they assume we'd be all peachy keen with the Nine Divines becoming enshrined in generic Cathedrals and losing any sort of conflict with one another? And why can't I go that way, and have to turn back? :stare:

Well said. There is no arguing with you. I still like Oblivion though.

I never understood the invisible barriers complaint. Where they could, they built natural barriers like mountains, but for the rest of the area, what did you expect, for there to be an infinite wilderness? It seems like that would be an even bigger waste of resources than people say voice acting is, since at least voice acting is relevant to the substance of the game.

I get this, but, if anything, the barriers should have been a lot further back. I would have preferred for the walls to appear once the map was losing substance. It annoyed me that if I was leaving a cave, and felt like doing some exploring, I could come to a "you can't go here" message within 2 minutes of walking, at certain places. But, what I would have liked to see is infinite wasteland, like Morrowind's, but with the default land level being at land height, and the default texture being grass (Cyrodiil isn't an island). It would generate itself as I walked. Trees would eventually disappear, and I'd eventually realise that I'm just going down some rubbish endless wilderness, and turn back at my own will.

I get what your saying, BUT that would kill the other provinces.

I was thinking, one of the porblems with oblivion was its use of Familiar elements and Blandness. Everything looked like LOTR or something similar.

The imperial palace/city looks a bit like Isengard.

Anvil looks like something off of Pirates of the Carribean.

That is all fine if Bethesda would've put a little twist to it. Everything was what it was. Sure it looked nice, but there was no unfamiliar element mixed in.
In Morrowind there was those Telvanni cities, and one of them was a Medeval type castle with giant roots and mushrooms growing out of it. It had both Familiar and unfamiliar elements to it.

And even these Familiar elements seemed bland. It would be like watching LOTR or Pirates of the Carribean, but only the essential Characters are ever seen.

I can applaud Bethesda for trying to give the NPCs more life, but all it was was them talking to each other. I really didn't see any of them LIVE. They didn't buy food(or stuff in General) or go hunting or work(aside from the shopkeepers).

Thank you Samwise Gamgee, your explaination leaves me only to say: Filthy stinking hobbitses.
...
Anyway, I think that Oblivion is better if you want a more "actiony" and "fast-paced" plot, and Morrowind is more for the hard-core rpg'ers who hate fast travel and despise the simplified combat system.

It wasn't just them talking to each other. They all had pretty intricate schedules (go here and eat at this time, go here and sleep at this time, wander around in this zone at this time, etc.). And even though that wasn't the living, breathing world we had been promised, it was still a leaps and bounds improvement over Morrowind. I don't think we should look at Oblivion through a modern filter, just like we shouldn't look at Morrowind that way. For its time, the AI was pretty damn good, and it's aged a little poorly, just like Morrowind's 256x256 textures have.

EDIT: @gaiusimperator-- Not quite, because a lot of people on the forums (myself included) love both Oblivion and Morrowind, as well as Daggerfall and Arena. I'll agree with the first half of your statement (that I play Oblivion when I'm looking for a more intense experience), but I enjoy the mechanics of both games, so what does that make me?

I hated it because I like to immerse myself in a world. The world itself is more important to me than quests or combat. I run or ride everywhere. I play for hours upon hours without doing a single quest. Sometimes without engaging in combat either. I like to leave the world I live in everyday and pretend I in that game world for an hour or two. That is why I love the Elder Scrolls games. They have always allowed me to go where I want, when I want.

When I run smack into an invisible wall it tends to ruin the feeling of living in an alternative universe for me. Worse, I hate spammed messages of any kind flashing across my screen. I don't hit invisible walls or see messages in front of my eyes in real life and I don't want them in my game either. When I see "You cannot go this way. Turn back." it tells me I am merely playing a game. My sense of immersion is lost.

How do you propose to avoid this problem? The Game world can only be so big. Its been the same with all games(Arena excluded) the world had limited space. Morrowind had a barrior(I've never been there but my brother has), you just never saw the point in going there because it involved swimming for miles.

Oh please, Morrowind did the exact same thing, and no one complained there. It made Morrowind seem like an island of it's own completely isolated from the rest of the world. Fallout had a similar proccess, I believe, once you get too far out, the world would just be one big, bland limbo of nothingness.

I've never been to the edge of Fallouts map, but I'm pretty sure most of its surrounded by cliffs, AND the entire world IS a wasteland in Fallout. The real problem is the shape of Cyrodill it sorta raps around Elsweyr and Valenwood(thats where I first met the barrier). However low and behold the is a mod that makes Elsweyr playable including, new textures/meshes, cities and quests no borders or barriers its in the same world space as Cyrodiil.

I chose potatos, jsut because i like both the games. The only reason i dont play Morrowind anymore is because i'd like to get some mods for it but im too lazy to i just dont feel like going through the process of finding a buncha mods like i did for Oblivion again.

I've really got to disagree, I'm a calm, "walk around and look at things", "pay attention to the small details", kind-of person. I really don't like combat and fighting in games, it's fun for a while, but I always end up getting bored with it and looking for new things to do. So in that aspect both TES games fulfill what I want out of a game. How a game is is how you play it. Oblivion and Morrowind can both be "fast-actiony experiences" and they can both be for hardcoe roleplayers.

Personally, I like roleplaying, and I prefer Oblivion. They aren't "destroy the mines and loot the settlements!" roleplays, they're sit around town, only travel when it's necessary, get a job and do that job only kinda of roleplays.

In both games, I wish there was a way to make money other than adventuring and finding objects. The Entertainer's Mod for Morrowind helped a little, but I'd like things to be more interactive than that.

Big enough to include all of Tamriel. The http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1108757-tamriel-worldspace-modding-project/ is proving that. When the project is finished we will be able to to sail around the entirety of Valenwood, Black Marsh, Vvardenfell, Solstheim, Skyrim, High Rock, Hammerfell and Summerset Isle. Most of these landmasses are finished now.




Your brother was misinformed. Morrowind continued to create new cells as long as you kept swimming.




I entirely agree with this. I roleplay and do little combat myself. For the most part my main interest in playing Elder Scrolls games is in running around and exploring. My character and I follow our noses wherever they lead us and get into our own trouble. The adventures I make for myself (with the help of my character, of course!) is almost always more fun than just doing quests. I have a kind of chip on my shoulder about quests: I don't like being told what to do. I can figure that out for myself.

I too love roleplaying in Oblivion. I think Roleplaying in Oblivion is just as easy (or as hard) as roleplaying in Morrowind. Roleplaying in in the mind, not in the game.

this

My Oblivion experience is always slow-paced and full of role-playing. I even prefer role-playing in Oblivion. :shrug: There's something about being a Shezarrine that I just love, and my Oblivion book collection always ends up being what I consider to be the most complete of any game. Cyrodiilic lore is my favorite.

Oh I know, I have no problem with this sort of thing. I should have probably said they(the DEVs) can only give you so much. Thats why they released a Construction Set, so you can do stuff like this.



When I said my brother had been there, I meant he was there I saw the message telling him to turn back.
But really, I think seeing the other provinces is still good, makes the world seem bigger.

I like that phrase "Roleplaying is in the mind, not in the game." You can roleplay very well in nearly anything, if you've got enough imagination.

---

I like roleplaying in RPGs (I know, right?), and I have a hard time doing that in games like DA:O. Roleplaying requires imagination, not a one-track level where you run through beating things up. I like that Bethesda creates these amazing worlds for us to play in instead of just pumping out every high-graphics game that centers around following a distinct path. ( Although they usually treat us to the good graphics anyhow ) Bethesda makes worlds, people, cultures, histories, events, and lets us see them through the eye of our character who we entirely control, we can sit down in a chair, we can close a door and steal something, we can beat somebody up and run into the woods being chased by the guards, we can go to the realms of the Daedric Princes and show them what a mortal can do, we can settle down and stay on a farm, or we can explore the dangerous dungeons scattered across the land. That's why I love all of Bethesda's games, you can do whatever you want to do. No limits like not being able to jump onto houses or swim through the water, no limits as to who you can talk to... Just no limits besides the borders of the 16x16 mile world that's full enough to keep us entertained and let us create our own little worlds inside of it.

That's why I haven't voted for Oblivion or Morrowind (And because Potatoes are something that cannot be ignored). Because you can do all of these things in each game. There are technical limitations which are understandable, but they don't just sit there and say "Run to the other side of the map where you'll fight the boss" Bethesda encourages us to slow down and look at what's in front of us.

Its not 16x16. That was just the map size. You couldnt travel to half of it.

:shrug: Still a lot of space.

Well, then I'm surprised that you like Oblivion, because it ruined it. Most of interesting things weren't implemented...


Not enough for the largest province on the continent. Besides, because of view-distance you could pretty much see the whole world from any spot. It was nice, but you quickly realised how small the world really was.

Fast travel, fasting moving and flat, open terrain all contributed to it.

Sometimes I felt that the game should be twice its current size. For every game cell there should be an another (even just with landscape and nothing else - one cell is not really a huge area) in order to create Morrowind-like impression of the game world. Technology has changed and game's size should follow.

Prove it. I, for one, enjoyed what was learned of the Ayleids and historical Cyrodiilic figures, such as Pelinal Whitestrake. The idea of the Imperials once being slaves to the rulers of the first Tamrielic empire comes off as a strong twist to Cyrodiilic history, to me. Refer to my signature to see one of my favorite sentences in Elder Scrolls lore. Yes, I do believe the "Oblivion ruined lore" statement that gets thrown around is false.

I have to say, view distance and travel speed have NOTHING to do with how big the world seems. It all has to do with landscape. Take Morrowind, for example, with MGE's distant land, the game still feels just as huge, because of small mountains, large hills, cities / ruins and Red Mountain.

Oblivion needed more mountains around the center of Cyrodiil. It was pretty pathetic that I could contsantly see so much of Cyrodiil. Sure, let me occasinally see immense views, but I don't want to see it every 5 seonds. Ruins everything. Again, take Morrowind, for example, If I go to some high peak in Red Mountain, when there's no Blight, with MGE, the view is absolutly amazing. If I saw something like that frequently, though, it would get boring and repetative. The mountains really work for distant land. Sometimes I think the game must have been developed with it in mind.

It also felt bigger because of bigger ruins. In Oblivion, there where only two types of ruins.

1. Forts. They where pathetically small. It made the whole world seem small because of a "this is all they could fit?" feel.
2. Aylied Ruins. While they where often quite large, they where often placed in positions that I couldn't see until I was close up.

In Morrowind, I often saw Large Dwemer ruins in the distance. They would make me think "wow, look at how huge these ruins are. Really makes the whole world seem huge".

And Seti, no one is saying Oblivion's lore is all crap. There are a few good things, but, there are also really awful things. Sure, Aylieds have nice lore, and Mankar's books may be nice, but there's also the ridiculous Aylied Ruins. Who in their right mind would live in these places? And why is the Imperial City so small? And why is the center of Imperial lifestyle such a happy, uncorrupt and political place? And, there's always the big "jungle" issue. Oblivion, imo, didn't make a big enough good impact on lore to really negate all the bad things it done to the lore. It didn't "ruin" lore. It just ruined certain aspects of lore.

About Aylieds. I really see them as Dwemer with a different flavour. If you look at Dwemer ruins, there are beds, furniture and everything to make the ruins seem like previous homes. This is really missing from Aylied Ruins. It just seems like they built their homes purposfully for dungeon looters one they where a dead race.

And Yngh, don't bother. People like Seti never realise that Oblivion has weak points. Lore is one of them. I've had arguments like this all the time.

Not to backtrack too much, but the only thing that really bothered me about the invisible walls in Oblivion was the fact that it was constantly interrupting me on the journey between Skingrad and Bravil.

They could have at least moved the border so that it's out of the way and not right against the path between Skingrad and Bravil. More evidence that they probably just fast-travelled 100% of the time when they "tested" the game.

It's another way in which Oblivion punishes exploration. And when it adds onto the restricted dungeons, the empty dungeons, the obnoxious scaled minotaurs, and the unsleepable beds... traveling through the wilderness becomes a nuisance and there's nothing optional about the fast travel, unless you want to end up prying your eyes out with a fork.