I agree with you on this point. Bethesda really should've had their distant land visibility respond more realistically to weather. It's harder to feel overwhelmed and immersed in an open-ended RPG when you can just look over your shoulder and see every other Ayleid ruin you've already looted. At the same time I don't think distant land works in all situations - I think Vvardenfell looks awful when you can see everything. When I play the game I only use MGE's to roughly double the view distance, as if the game's render slider could merely go a little bit farther. That's me, though.


Whenever Oblivion brought up lore, it wasn't bad. I liked Mankar Camoran's writings and the history behind the Knights of the Nine. We got to learn a little more about the Alessian Empire and their battles against the Ayleids. Regrettably they left all the more recent, non-historical things underdeveloped such as the Colovian/Nibenese divide and the Cults of Dibella. Good job turning the Imperial Legion into the most memetic army in history and trying to make people assume thieves could never start a guild. I bet you Hieronymous Lex works for the Thieves Guild and was told to use his high status to convince everybody they didn't exist.

Even though Morrowind was smaller in size compared to Cyrodil in Oblivion, Morrowind still felt way bigger. Oblivion's landscape was reused to the point that I couldn't take it.

Scenario:

-Oblivion: You get lost in the woods. But oh dear! It's the same trees and rocks that you see everywhere else. Assuming you don't have a map, how will you find your way out? Sure, in a snowy area you know you're near bruma, but that's really all you can go by.

-Morrowind: You get lost on Vvardenfell. If you're in an ashy area with lava, you know you're somewhere in the north/northeastern part of the island. If you go north, you'll eventually hit the sheogorad region. Or you get lost in a grassy area, so you're likely in the southern part. Going south might get you to vivec. Or you're in a ashy area with little lava, so you're likely in the northwestern area. Go along the coast and you'll hit Khuul, or Gnisis. Maybe you're in a swampy area, meaning you're likely in the Bitter Coast region. Walk around a while and you'll find a road, and likely some roadsigns.

Oblivion just feels like they took a square mile of grass, added a few tree and rock models, maybe a ruin or cave, then stretched it out, made one part snowy, and made the southern part a tiny bit swampy.

Morrowind had more detail, landmarks, and interesting scenery.

In lore, Cyrodiil is a thriving centre of a giant Empire (well, the Empire is no more, but still...), full of complex political alliances, intrigues and corruption. It's the biggest province out there (it certainly doesn't feel like that in Oblivion) and it has a kind of exotic flavour, as all Tamriel provinces do, to some extent. It's mostly covered by dense jungle, but border regions are various. Colovian West is completely different that Nibenay East - something which was almost unnoticeable in Oblivion. There is no conflict, no spice - and Oblivion storyline takes place in very busy and chaotic times! You don't feel that ingame.

In lore, Imperial City is grand (just read the description in First Edition of the Pocket Guide to the Empire - http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-cyrodiil) and really feels like the capital of the Empire, unlike in Oblivion. Arcane University should really be a big, magical place with impressive library (one of the biggest in Tamriel!), powerful mages studying Daedra, Dwemer, Ayleids, unique creatures etc., not a cowshed with purple lights it was made into in Oblivion. Again, there is no magic, no sense of uniqueness.

Where is the Imperial Legion? Its presence is hardly noticeable and you can't even join the faction IN CYRODIIL - it was possible to do so in MORROWIND! Where are powerful Imperial Battlemages? Surely, those fat guards with some fluffy hoods aren't supposed to represent them, are they? Where is the Elder Council? Why looting the freaking Imperial Palace feels like robbing a beggar (except one quest in Thieves Guild)?

Nine Divines - there was potential to create a religion that was as interesting as Morrowind's Tribunal and the Temple. It's NOT Christianity and it shouldn't feel like that. There are rivalries inside, not unification. Plots and magic is involved. Even the Morrowind's Imperial Cult was more fleshed out - come on, it was provincial missionary "hand" of the Imperial religions. In Oblivion, we are in the capital province itself and religion is hardly noticeable, excluding some minor buffs you can get in Nine Divines Altars...

Oh, and the Daedra. Look what Bethesda did in Shivering Isles - they created a unique worldspace filled with strange and alien things, unique places, lore and quests. Now compare that to Mehrunes' so-called "Daedlands". Boring, repetitive, generic - there are sth like 10 (!!!) similar worldspaces in the whole game! It looks like classical Hell, not like Oblivion.

That's why Oblivion feels bland compared to lore version of Cyrodiil. Morrowind at least felt like Morrowind.

:foodndrink: Hit the nail on the head.

Not true. All of these things affect how big the world may seem to the player. View distance, travel speed, amount of fast-travel use, and landscape. Landscape is not the only factor. If you fast travel a lot in Oblivion, the world will seem smaller, because you never have to go through walking across the land. Oh, and by the way, landscape has to do with view distance. Obviously if there are hills everywhere you're not going to see as far, making the world seem bigger.

I have to disagree. The majoriity of Morrowinds landscape was that Ashe wasteland, it all looked the same no matter where I was(in the ashlands that is). Albiet Oblivions not much better, but that is no reason to say Morrowind is better in areas it is not.


I agree, but the question is; Why?
Things have to be scaled down, sure, but Vivec has more Grandier than the Imperial City, and I just don't know why.
Better Cities helps a bit, but it can bring out the lore because the game itself covered it all up.

Oblivion

I'm speechless. That's some impressive persuasion you are putting out here, mate. I applaud you.

Although I didn't feel Oblivion was small, I agree that you can go a long way with obstructions, to enhance the size of the world, in addition, to take advantage of the Z axis can create great and exciting environments, like http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/302/db44bf27f82144ef8394e05.png.



I think the size issue is one that plagues all but daggerfall, they are all in "reality" much bigger than the games presents them.



I find that part of it is a falsh shell. I mean there's corrupt guards, corrupt mechants, it's infiltrated by vampires, people are praying to the night mother requesting assassinations, once you scraqe the surface, it really isn't all sunshine and dancing. A more visually present corruption is desirable though, kind of like the cheydinhal corruption.

.

This is actually untrue, the trees change species depending on the region you're in, as well as the plant life, you won't find the same ingredients at random. The different regions is actually pretty recognizable.

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac87/MartutTES/BlackMarsh.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac87/MartutTES/ColovianHighlands.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac87/MartutTES/GoldCoast.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac87/MartutTES/GreatForest.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac87/MartutTES/Heartlands.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac87/MartutTES/JerallMountains.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac87/MartutTES/NibenayBasin.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac87/MartutTES/NibenayValley.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac87/MartutTES/WestWeald.jpg

Nibenay Basin and Valley look similar because they overlap, but I never understood why people say they can't tell the difference between the areas.

I also didn't get the West Weald grass in my West Weald picture, it's a deep red at the top. It's actually a kind of heather, I believe.

I also accidentally named Blackwood "Black Marsh". :shrug:

All trees, and grass.

Changing the color of the grass =/= variety.

In Morrowind you got Mushrooms, Trees, and Grass.

The ground is also a different texture, they have different ground textures for every region.

You can only find "Fall Color" trees in the Great Forest region. You can only find Weeping Willows in the East. There are also different rock textures for every area, with different kinds of grass on top. The "Golden Grass" is only found in the Gold Coast, and the trees are more far apart there, and are very sparse. In the Colovian Highlands the ground is brown-ish green with some yellows in there too.

Mandrakes are only found around Bravil and up in the North West. Flax is very common in the West Weald and around Cheydinhal, but you can find it a few times in other places. Ginseng could only be found in the far East and the far West, with a few other ones here and there.

They also have specific "spawners" for areas. Like "Swamp Creatures" will only spawn in Swampy areas, "Forest Creatures" will only spawn in forest areas, etc.

The architecture for the cities was also very different, and I never understood that debate either.

Oh, please. Without Unique Landscapes the game feels rather bland when it comes to landscapes. Sure, there are different terrain textures and different-coloured tress, but it all lacks something. Oblivion's regions lack "soul".

We need more landscape features. When you something like this - http://www.extremeborneo.com/Mountain.JPG - it's memorable. That's what we need more of - memorable places.

This isn't the case either, they change size and design, as I've said, it's different species of trees, the difference between two species of trees is not simply color.

I agree, there need to be more memorable places and there needs to be more "soul", but that wasn't the same as "Every place looks the same".

Oh please all you want, the difference is not just textures or colours, I said is was untrue, because it's not a case of opinion, you can believe that Oblivions trees are the same with different textures and colours, but it wont change the actual appearance of the in game trees. Define "soul" for me, because that seems rather subjective.

So? Whopdie do, they change the species of the tree and grass color. Doesn't change the fact Morrowind has more distinct regions.

I don't understand the arguments that are being made here anymore. You people want there to be a giant mountain in the middle of Cyrodiil, even though in lore (even in the PGE) the province is a giant basin, and you want there to be something other than "trees and grass" even though that's what Cyrodiil is (even in the PGE, what exactly do you think a rainforest consists of?). So... you want Cyrodiil to be Vvardenfell? Ah, it all makes sense now.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way (addressing a point from a couple pages ago now), the reason it sometimes comes across as people being unable to acknowledge the faults of Oblivion is because you FORCE us into that position by never, ever acknowledging that it has any strengths in terms of world design, atmosphere, lore, or anything else other than "shiny graphics" or some totally superficial thing like "I like sneaking." It's impossible to have a conversation with you, because if we talk about the game's faults, it turns into one giant Oblivion-bash, but if we don't, if we try to say "Hey, Bethesda actually did a pretty good job with this", we're biased [censored] who can't wrap our brains around the possibility that the game had weaknesses. It's a really unfair argument, and sort of reflects poorly on those who try to make it. :shrug:

The main thing is one such person was saying that Morrowind had more diverse land than oblivion, where as Morrowind was just as Bland or even more so bland than Oblivion.

I love Unique landscapes and I have them all, however that is why the Construction Set is made, so modders can make their own landmarks.
But considering that most of Oblivion was Generated not constructed(I wouldn't presume to assume how hard the DEVs worked on Oblivion, but it seemed that they didn't work to hard at least on landscape and cities).
However, I did find exploring the Mountains as a memorable experience.

Edit: @ Sir-Stabs-Alot: Where? How? I don't get what you are saying. Morrowind had an abrupt change in scenery, Oblivions was gradual and more natural change in scenery. AND most of Morrowind was one thing, Ashelands, nothing distinct there.

I'm a hundred percent certain a mountain in the middle of Cyrodiil was an exaggeration, and you took it the wrong way.

x_death, thats not the argument. Yes, the ashlands are bland. But that doesn't have anything to do with diversity. Morrowind has regions that are much more distinct. Ignore the fact that the Ashlands take up most of Vvardenfell, on a quality standpoint, Morrowind is more diverse.

Oh and yeah it was abrupt, because they had mountains between them. DURRR

Where's Hircine? I don't feel like arguing stupid crap like this, but surely he will.

Morrowind-Swamp, Ashelands, Plains, and whatever you would consider the region around Vivec to be, how is that more diverse.

Oblivion-All of Morrowinds and then some(Mehrunes Dagons realm counts too).

I've argued this argument before, and have no desire to do it again. And I argued it with Seti, and trust me, he makes better points than the vast majority of people here (even if he's a dirty OB fan ), so please excuse me. If you want to debate about this, wait for Hircine to come around.

And if you wanna find the thread, more power to you, I don't know what it was called, but you'll find my position and evidence there.

In Lore Cyrodiil didn't have super-distinct regions. They had distinct cultures and customs for different places, which are kind-of hard to add in a 2006 game where they didn't have things like animation markers like they do in Fallout 3, and they were crunched on time as well. But it wasn't "Huge Trees that Move and Talk and have glowing pods" in one area and "no trees, only sand" in another. They had mountains all around them that lowered into the center with a large island. On this island was a big city, the lake around the city formed a river that went down to the Topal Bay.

It's said that there were grasslands surrounding the city, with equatorial rainforests that are broken apart by rivers. They still have the rainforests, it's just that they were temperate instead of equatorial. And then the rivers are supposed to flow down towards a more swampy region (this was done), and then it's supposed to go out into Topal Bay. It also said that towards the Gold Coast the trees became sparser, which also happened. I mean, look at http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/pge01_cyrodiil.gif. Things aren't supposed to be very distinct. Forest around Imperial city, Beach to the West, Swamps to the South & Mountains to the East.

And... :blink: We're arguing? I'm not even remotely angry... I thought this was just a peaceful debate. :sadvaultboy:

Why do they always turn into arguments?

That is not my argument, jeeze is it every bodies job here to take me out of context.

That's what an argument is. A peaceful debate.