:lol: That's just my dollar on the or of this topic.

And I was at church when I posted that.

No it hadnt started yet.

I definitly know what you mean. It wasn't that Oblivion was a bad game, but it lacked the character that Morrowind had. Morrowind was just so special and unique, it just utterly immersed me in it's mysterious and exotic world. Oblivion on the other hand, was fun for a while but in my opinion is not a classsic like Morrowind. I have been playing Morrowind on and off for almost 7 years but hardly ever play oblivion anymore.

Oblivion was a fine game, and it had it's strong points over Morrowind.Oblivion's strongest weakness was the lack of variety and content.

The world of Oblivion loses in every detail aside from graphics, however the quests win undeniably. I chose Morrowind because no matter how much better the quests are constructed in OB I just can't seem to get immersed in the world. There's also the questions of controls which in OB made me swear many a time when my character would make a sudden jump forward making me miss the enemy when I only wanted him to swing a little harder. However Oblivion is still better than 99% of non-TES games.

I'm the opposite the familiarity of Oblivion's world made it more immersive, graphics and gameplay helped . Vvandenferl's brown, barren look sought of brought me out of immersion. It didn't help that travel was slower so it didn't feel all that great to even explore. So Oblivion.

To the person who said Morrowind had dated combat, it didn't It had real ROLEPLAYING GAME combat, not FPS combat (Oblivion). Also, graphics? Really?

I think both games are great, but I prefer Oblivion. The atmosphere, environment and architecture appeals to me much more than in Morrowind. They are both awesome games, but the difference is that I would love to live in Cyrodiil. I would not want to live in Vvardenfell.

Tabris did you just say the atmosphere, enviroment, and architecture of Cyrodiil are better than Morrowind's? :wacko: Generic LotR vs. Originality?

It's called different tastes. :thumbsup:

I agree with Tabris93.

Vvardenfell's landscape was far too segmented into semi-cartoony, WoW-style "zones" for my taste. As nice as a few of these regions were the stark transitions between them too often reminded me of a day at Disneyland (Red Mountain Land...West Gash Land...Ascadian Isles Land).

I thought Bethesda created a more advlt landscape with Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil's regions, I felt, were blended together with more skill and art. The transition from the somewhat swampy lands surrounding Leyawiin to the deciduous woodlands near Lake Rumare out to the rolling grasslands of the Gold Coast was handled with much more skill and art, I felt, than regional transitions in Vvardenfell (such as the one found near the Fields of Kummu in Vvardenfell where you can literally place one foot in lush Ascadian Isles and the other foot in rocky Ashlands.)

I hope Bethesda continues to pursue a more mature art style, as they did with Solstheim and Cyrodiil.

I agree with Tabris for reasons similar to Pseron Wyrd's, but I'd also like to add that I just don't like ashlands, as well.

This is rather interesting. When someone first mentioned zones in Morrowind, I went "What zones?". I can now see the zones they are describing but it never felt like zones. It was all natural for me. I think it was Bethesda's achievement to make an alien world like that to appear and feel natural.

Here my country.
http://www.propertyturkeyforsale.com/images/tmap2.jpg

Marmara(northwest), low hills and farmlands. It's quite humid.

Aegean(west), low hills and higher mountains.

Mediterranean(south), long shores. It is almost always summer there.

Central Anatolia, the center of Turkey is high plateau (elevation 900m/3000 feet at Ankara) of rolling steppe framed by mountain ranges, some of which boast snow-capped dormant volcanoes.

Black Sea Coast(north), is lush and green. Rainy.

Eastern Anatolia, mountainous. Very cold.

Southeastern Anatolia, it is hot and dry.

Turkey has seven geographic regions with distinct weather and climates. I must be living in Disneyland Morrowind. It is a unique situation but it is natural.

Oblivion is called Disneyland for obvious visual reasons. Though, distinct weather and climates wouldn't work. Just imagine in one screenshot being able to see 3+ distinct areas. The shape of Cyrodiil wouldn't have let it. I am glad they didn't force it.

If I would call one of them mature, it would be Morrowind all the way. Morrowind could be alien, but it was a realistic alien world. Oblivion has amazing nature, technology helps here. But Oblivion houses are too cartoony for me. I pretend they don't exist when I am walking towns. Only Bruma houses are cool. And I like only Bravil, because it is the closest thing to an open city, somewhat unique.(Hmm, just like Balmora and Sadrith Mora being highlights. But Pelegiad, Caldera and Seyda Neen are still somewhat more memorable.) I am still playing though, so my ideas about Oblivion can change. I quit playing after getting bored, mainly because lots of walking 4 years ago but now I returned and I am trying to love Fast Travel(it isn't working, in the process now I hate Morrowind style fast travel mods. Now I understand I must have played it too much Morrowind style back then, hehe.)

For me both games have atmosphere. It is just that Morrowind has multiple atmospheres hence more atmosphere. Oblivion seems to have the same atmosphere 7/24, even schedules couldn't help it. One should merge Oblivion's schedules to Morrowind and Morrowind's atmosphere to Oblivion, I guess.

Too hard to vote as they are different games and you didn't provide an option in the poll to choose enjoy equally - when I play Oblivion I keep going - wow - that was great they implemented that - like sitting down or how NPC's go to bed - sometimes i look at features in Oblivion and remember when something similar was modded in Morrowind - i think it was really cool the developers decided to implement modders ideas from their previous game - there's a lot to like about both games

No it didn't. I don't even understand what people mean with "FPS combat", I've only ever found morrowind combat in morrowind, any other Rpg does it better, and with good reason too. if anything the combat in morrowind is most similar to the combat in Oblivion, only not as broken. Oblivion combat is lacking, but can be fixed, Morrowinds combat is broken, and cannot be repaired because of the way TES is put together.

First Person Pespective (FPP), demands full player control over the characters movements, which is the domain of dice rolls in other rpgs, which is why you cannot successfully have to-hit chance in a game with FP perspective. Oblivion acknowledges this dilemma, gives the player full movement control, and instead have stats effect what happens when you hit instead. Oblivions problem now is that there isn't enough stat effects when you hit, which is easily fixable.

Morrowind combat=dice rolls=DnD=RPG combat. Alot of RPGs have Morrowind combat, you just don't recognize it.

I agree with you when you say Morrowind combat can be only found in Morrowind. But I don't agree it is broken. Oblivion's combat has nothing over Morrowind's. You can easily type setagility 1000 and get Oblivion combat in Morrowind. That's not the case in Oblivion because it doesn't let any failures besides player specific ones. I am in the opinion that any game can use character skills to scale the outcomes of actions. Have you seen any NPC dodge in Oblivion? I haven't. Does Morrowind NPCs dodge in combat? YES. It is just that I can't see it but the principle is there. In this equation, it is Oblivion combat that is broken because it doesn't take luck or agility into the equation. I expected to see dodge animations and weapon animations like stabbing, slicing, crushing but in Oblivion instead a similar formula as Morrowind except no agility or luck in it. It is going backwards.


I am in the opinion that it can be done. I am playing Dark Messiah, I see my enemy dodging/parrying me. What is the factor deciding that he can dodge my attack? Is it some random number generation? I think so. The dilemma here is the response time between me pressing the mouse button to my character starts the action. This can be determined by agility or some other stat in combination. And the other side seeing this and responding to my action which in computer programming can be override so computer can dodge every single time. I see this as proper action-combat simulation and not in dynasties of older dice roll RPGs. If damage is gonna be calculated, it should be about weapon type, impact velocity(strength? speed?) and hit detection(intelligence?, skill? Luck?). It is all about agility. If it is gonna be the Oblivion way, they should just remove agility.

@Kalarn
Morrowind isn't using dice rolls. It is using full fledged formulas. Here someone who can see it besides me.
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=227
At least I am not alone.

I hope I can see response times being important in next game, agility being an important part of the equation with some probabilistic simulation approach. If it is gonna be about mouse spamming and damage sponges like in Oblivion, I would be very angry.

I will be hated by both parties because I want probability and action at the same time. -_-

It's a real shame that players have to turn this into an "either/or" slugfest. It doesn't have to be that way. Dungeons and Dragons-style dice roll combat is a valid system and can be a lot of fun. Player-controlled first-person combat can be a lot of fun too. Speaking only for myself, I know that sometimes I can be in the mood to swing a sword and sometimes I can be in the mood to let my character swing the sword.

I think the reason I like combat in Morrowind and Oblivion better than combat in any other game I've played is because, for all their flaws, they are interesting hybrids of both systems.

That was tongue-in-cheek, I couldn't find the appropriate emoticon maybe.


I don't like dice rolls. But it is a technical issue. I mean how can you create full fledged formulas and run them real-time in table top games. The evolution for table-top games followed a different route. For video games, combining player skill and character skill is the ideal approach. Especially for Elder Scrolls.


Ditto.

It's got one thing over it, and that is that it can be built upon. When you have FPP you can't have hit failures be anything but player specific, you can have lots of failures in everything else, which is what Oblivion lacks. I'm also of the opinion that character skills can be used to scale the outcome of actions, I'm also of the opinion that Morrowind is doing it wrong.

I have actually seen NPC's dodge in Oblivion, it when they move back when I swing, it's when they do a quick circle strafe trying to flank me.



But the principle is broken when you have FPP, it's not gonna matter if they dodge, because you still have conflicting player/character hits.

When the player hits, the character only gets a chance to hit, let's just go over that again, when my sword connects with the enemy, the game determines if my sword connected with the enemy....can you see the problem here, in morrowind they don't dodge, because then I wouldn't hit. If the player misses, the character always misses, my character can be the greatest swordsman in the world, but his skill will not override mine. This leaves you with disadvantage that other rpgs don't have and that the npc's don't share, because they have auto aim ( "player" skill = 100%), and the player can't have auto aim when you have FPP. Other non-FPP rpgs don't have this problem, because the player is either in Third Person Perspective (TPP) or in isometric perspective, which opens up the ability for auto-aim.

Couple this with the fact that morrowind has a high damage output, and you get a system which effectively makes player skill more important, because the dice is only rolled when you hit, so the more the player hits, the more often the dice is rolled.

The result of a dice rolls isn't meant to be simply a hit/miss system, it was originally intended as a system which is supposed to take into account everything from your movement and position to the enemy environmental effects like gliding in the sand. It's an approximation of the whole battle, but this can't be shown in morrowinds system, because The Player through FPP controls the majority of the factors which stats and dice rolls are meant to be in control of.



Dark Messiah does alright, you will notice that most of the skills in the skill tree in dark messiah only effect your actions and not your interactions, you can increase your damage, or get certain abilities, but hit detection is determined by physics, and when someone parries or dodges it is a consequence of their skill alone, not a comparison between your skills and theirs, this is because it will create the same problem in morrowind, only we would only be able to see it, had morrowind been with dodge animations.



I want critical hit and critical failure back in the game, I want damage to be an interval rather than a set number. These would allow stats and character skills to have more influence on combat taking control away from the player.

I want power attacks to be something that you can learn on all times, but that an successful power attack is determined by you're skill with that type of weapon. It doesn't have to be power attacks either, it can be fighting styles, or a combination of attacks as well. The chance of failure could then be 0% when you reach the appropriate skill level. This would mean that you don't just magically learn a new ability over night, because you leveled up. This could apply to magic as well, so that you don't have to "unlock" certain high level spells.

If they try fumbling around with stat based hit chances again, we will get the same mess with contradictions between physics and probability.

Player failures are already there, I acknowledge this already. What can we add more to it? Strafing NPCs exist in Morrowind too. What can we add more?


I don't want Morrowind's system. I am proposing a system, where the enemy dodges you, which is presented in a believable physical world. Player failure is already there, so I am scaling things between player skill and character skill. The inner work decides these on probabilistic manner. We compare skills and decide if the AI can make a dodge maneuver in time, but not on every hit, rather the probability of it. There are systems to fix exploits. In Pro Evolution Soccer 6, trying the same attack over and over again will decrease the success rates. It could be the AI learning, or some random number generation. Doesn't matter the outcome is satisfying.

These doesn't have to be conflicting. But can be complementing.


You think your sword connects the enemy in Morrowind. But that's not the case. Although I have to mention, from my point of view Morrowind's combat is so lacking to the point of non-existent. I am not saying it is broken or perfect. It is just extremely lacking. But I like the core principle, my characters luck can add to my luck or vice versa.

I agree about the majority of factors being in FPP but physics is an overriding factor there. And there are still things that are in the domain of probability. Let's address all these. I don't care if we take Morrowind and built upon it or Oblivion's. For me both games are awful in combat perspective.


Comparison's not a good way to do it. That's something I wanted to be fixed too with Morrowind's system. But probability is still there in Dark Messiah. They don't dodge or parry me every single time. Or with critical strikes, there has to be probability. In Oblivion we get physics(or so they say.it is still the same with Morrowind.) So maybe new game will have more flavor to combat.


I think trainers need an overhaul. To learn some new move, I must use a trainer. I must see it in real time. But except that, it should be scaling all the way. Also I want release time control. Oblivion's power attacks left me feeling like I am not in control. Zeno Clash is a very good example besides Dark Messiah.

I want them to try and succeed in bringing probability and physics for FPP combat mechanics. Somebody need to do this. Response times are a very good idea to start. Milliseconds create all the difference in the world when it comes to reflexes. All simulations use probability, there is no escape.

We can add effects when you hit that are determined by stats, the strafe/physical dodge in morrowind and oblivion is AI, not a result of a dice, but because there is dice roll dodges as well in morrowind, the system work against you, because when you hit, the character still has to hit, and your skill will always override character skill, while character skill will never override your skill.



I understand what your trying to do, but than you have the problem that the difference in skill will determine the behavior of the enemy, which means a fat civilian will be dodging around like pro khajiit acrobat, simply because your skill is worse than his, while if your skill is superior, he will behave like a fat civilian.

The behavior of enemy must only be controlled by his own stats, not yours. This will work better if they simply make Dodging a skill, which will determine dodges independently of the opponent.



I know I wasn't supposed to have hit, it's just that because of the way it is implemented, you have two forces working against you, your character is basically handicapped by the players inability to be aim like a computer, and the player is handicapped by the characters inability to role the dice at player misses, as well as player hits. In Oblivion, which is still quite simple combat, I don't want just OB combat, you still have player failure, but player hits are now consistent enough to work as a balance, because you only have yourself to fight against. Now character stats can still effect what happens when you hit (as in connect with the enemy for real), how you hit, so to speak, this part is lacking in Oblivion, and needed. Because when you are guaranteed to hit as a player (provided the physics allows it), you are guaranteed consistent dice rolls when things matter. Of course the dice wont roll when you don't hit, but than it isn't meant to, it now governs how you hit, which can never be in your control, which can only ever be governed by stats.



Both games are awful in respect to combat when in the light of what they can be, I just think that working on Oblivion as the foundation, will give a better result.



I've got nothing against dodges or parries determined by skills individually to the specific character. Like I suggested, Dodging could become it's own skill, it would of course have to work differently for the playable character, given that we can't express dodging animations in a character that we have FPP control over. I thinking probably either something like a successful dodge from the playable character would slow down time matrix style, or it could work like a special parry which gave the opportunity for a counter attack.



Yeah, the hold down thing wasn't the best way to go with it, I also enjoyed Zeno Clashes combat, great FPP fighting game. While we're at it, why don't we also have the block button just be the "action" button for the left arm, if you put a shield in it, it blocks, if you put a sword in it, it attacks, opens up a lot of diversity combat wise, Duel Daedric Daggers FTW.

Another great thing to take from Dark Messiah is the finishing moves/stabs or critical strike animations where they hang on your blade, good stuff.

Speaking of daggers makes me think of stealth kills, which makes me think of the Chronicles of Riddike, oh man I could go on forever.



I'm not sure I would mind that too much, but I can't picture it, do you mean that there a chance of reacting faster?

I started with Oblivion, and I fell in love with it. It introduced me into the TES world and all of the lore within it. However when I played Morrowind for the first time on PC, I was blown away. Morrowind was much more engaging, and the story was simply great. When I walked into a dungeon in Morrowind, I always had a bit of 'fear' concerning what I would find and when I found it, it was generally a '[censored] me' moment. Oblivion lacked this in my opinion. It was a master piece in my mind, and by far my favourite game of all time. So I voted Morrowind.

So far as mods go, I would still vote Morrowind what with the TR Mods and the Skyrim and Cyrodil mods that are in development

But don't get me wrong, I do love Oblivion.

They aren't gonna dodge my attacks every single time, so there must be some chance to it. Without adding some chance, everything will be the same way in every single time. Chance is too important to left out. You can't make a simulation without it. Besides, there is an attribute called luck.(it is almost useless though.)

Damage should be calculated with physics only. When I send the arrow it is now out of my control as a player and as a character. If it hits the bullseye, one shot kill. Stats should effect my accuracy, the speed of the arrow. It shouldn't be completely about my player skill, I can aim for the head but there is a very long time for something to happen in computer time to stop the arrow from hitting my target. If the opponent is too agile, he can hear the sound of the arrow and react in time. Not every single time, off course but more often. Or my luck can override this and make me score a perfect shot. In programming these can be arranged.

Last decade gun mechanics were so that you can just shoot in a straight line. Now, they adopt a system where gun fire spreads(RNG). Is it too hard to bind these spread value to character skills? Because I know a gunslinger would have low spread value and I would probably hit by the recoil so bad, I will be shooting stars. Gunslinger's strength and skill both have a deciding factor on this. I would love to see these in any game out there. For example playing Half-Life like this would be so satisfying. A simple engineer to a killing machine. Not a killing machine engineer straight away. I even searched Dark Messiah modding scene if TES skill system could be adopted to it. But DM isn't that moddable unfortunately.

For melee it isn't any different. I only click a mouse button but I can select a trust, chop or slice and my character starts moving his/her arm. That's a very long time to manipulate things in computer time. So for me, everything is about character skills, I guess(I have a very different perspective, wanting action through character skills. ). It is just that in games, we get fixed characters and they are godly skilled usually which creates the "illusion of player skill". But FPS games are awfully short so wanting skill progress from them isn't that realistic. It could have been fun though. I mean, I am not saying it is bad. FPS games can use it. I hope The Witcher type RPG games can create illusion of player skill in their next installments. They badly need this. But for TES, I think we can pass the illusion of player skill and form a hybrid that really works.

This. Not much to mod in Morrowind, I downloaded the creatures mod and some graphic replacers and im happy with the content in it.
Oblivion had much to mod, much to much to name the amount of things ive modded in my game.

Hmmm tough one, I really loved both but I get more "Enthralled" in Morrowind, mainly because of all the unique environments and gritty feel it had, Plus the nostalgia i still have of playing it when I got home from school many years ago......I've never felt that way about a game.

On the other hand Oblivion is a beautiful game, GORGEOUS graphics and great combat. However Level scaling really hurt it as did all the environments looked about the same. Still an amazing game though. But Morrowind edges it out a tad.