[Peter lopez]

Hello,

I just like to announce that the MPP 1.6.4 and subsequent beta versions, was pulled due to a variety of reasons (introduced errors, author complaints, debatable fixes, compatability, among other things). In the end I decided that the current versions should just be pulled to make things easier.



I would advise people to go back to using the UMP v1.6.3b, since that's the last uncontested version. I may just release the old companion version that loads afterwards (remember the UUMPPP?).



Anyways, I think at least for bugfixes, the community should go back to smaller bugfix releases, and leave it up to the endusers to combine fixes.

Thank you quorn for the hard work you have done with the MPP. :trophy: :bowdown:

I've never tried UMP 1.6.3b before so I give it a try. :wink_smile:
Good point there quorn for the bug fixes and I concur.

[Kim Kay]

Was it really that bad? I see you fixed lots of things, such as the stock certificate crash in Bloodmoon, freeing Dahleena, etc. - maybe we should make a new version by starting with 1.6.3 and implementing only the stuff that is pretty sure to work? (I could fix the bugs I reported, except the misdirection to the wind stone in Bloodmoon - I'm not sure I'm able to edit that map.)

[Dark Mogul]

Personally, I like modular fixes; as with MCP where everything is optional. Would it be difficult to re-release the fixes from later versions as separate mods? They could be, as quorn suggested, merged by the end-user, as desired. Thanks for everything you've done so far, quorn. If you're curious, I run 1.6.5b and have yet to run into any deal-breakers.

[Susan]

The problem with modularization... one can have only so many mods active at one time. And merging - is there a safe way to do that? Besides, imagine we have different modular ESPs, how do we make sure they don't conflict with each other, particularly if they make edits to one and the same greeting? And how do we find out whether some bug has already been fixed in one of them, and if it is, in which one?

I would propose at least making those fixes that are obviously harmless in the main patch - such as floaters (which constitute 90% of bugs...), quest breakers (Dahleena, Ice Blade, Berne Amulet, ...) and typos. These changes shouldn't conflict with any mod, except if the modder actually tried to fix the same bugs in a different way (which is really bad practice - patching and modding should not be mixed). As for the changes that affect balancing (such as "crusader class favored attribute changed from agility to willpower"), they belong into a different ESP indeed. Some of the scripts (everything Sixth House related and Temple related, as there may be mods changing the same scripts) probably also deserve to be in a different ESP. But I wouldn't want to have 30 different ESPs all patching different bugs.

And thanks a lot for the work, quorn. Even with your patch having bugs, your "Bug Fixes.txt" is a great contribution.

[Cash n Class]

By modular, I don't mean each and every fix is it's own mod, but you've broken them down nicely. Typos should be one mod, quest fixes should be another and floaters can be another. That way, there won't be any worry about two mods fixing the same thing or conflicting. I believe a return to the original scope of the MPP is probably a good idea; IIRC, it was to change as little as possible while fixing the most glaring gameplay issues. Beyond that, you're getting into areas some people don't want or need fixed.

[M!KkI]

Only I fear that the typos will conflict with the quest fixes... how does MW combine two changes to one and the same topic?

[Chantelle Walker]

Was it really that bad? I see you fixed lots of things, such as the stock certificate crash in Bloodmoon, freeing Dahleena, etc. - maybe we should make a new version by starting with 1.6.3 and implementing only the stuff that is pretty sure to work? (I could fix the bugs I reported, except the misdirection to the wind stone in Bloodmoon - I'm not sure I'm able to edit that map.)

The majority of complaints were about compatibility issues with older mods. Other complaints were of the MPP tweaking rather than fixing, which is debatable, but it does get to a point where the bugfixing gets too overbearing. The MPP did introduce a few errors/oversights though, which isn't *that* bad considering the multitude of issues resolved, and are easy fixes. Surprisingly I got a number of complaints about bugs that were fixed, which fixed some people's favorite exploits and such. Or fixing decimal errors.

There was also some author issues, since this project heavily relied on other bugfix projects. This is mostly a grey area, since nothing was 'merged' verbatim.

The compatibility issue is what is the concern. Some methods to fully fix bugs are going to cause conflicts, and excluding fixes for the sake of compatibility is a frustrating decision. But let's face it, at this point, there's no incentive to fully patch the game if it's going to cause a myriad of issues with compatibility for mods that were released years ago.

Besides, the further I dug into the dialog and scripts, I couldn't help but feel that certain areas needed a total re-write instead of jury-rigging it to function as intended, which of course leads to my former point.

[Krista Belle Davis]

Only I fear that the typos will conflict with the quest fixes... how does MW combine two changes to one and the same topic?

It can't, the later mod's data overwrites the former's fields. TESTool tried to incorporate dialog merging, to error-prone success. I manually fixed every line of dialog when 'merging' fixes.

[Robert Jr]

While you are here, can you tell me why the 1.6.5beta file is set to have a date older than Bloodmoon.esm? Isn't that stupid for a patch depending on Bloodmoon?

For some reason, daylight savings screwed up the patch's hour. However, regardless of the date, a plug-in/master file can only load after its dependances are loaded first.

[Marina Leigh]

You could be right, but TESPCD did not list any master (ESM) file: the lines end with "none". That's why I though these were just remnants from a previous MPP, and not corrections on morrowind.esm or something. But you're right, we need to be careful and I might very well be wrong.

I changed only the one forementioned cell, which in hindsight, I should've left alone. There are a lot of misspelled cells, but fixing them would cause even more compatibility issues. I think the UMP 1.6.3b changed a few cells, which I rescinded in the latest patches. The same with dialog topics.

[Roddy]

Just out of curiosity... what sort of "compatibility issues" are we talking about here? Like, what mods are affected?

As much as I respect your decision to pull the plug on the project, I'm going to need a damn good reason to go back from 1.6.5. to 1.6.3. Do you, by the slightest of chances, happen to possess a list of changes made from 1.6.3 to the later two versions?

[Robyn Lena]

Furthermore... the MPP has served as an invaluable resource for my own mod by letting me know which fixes I needed to include along with my own edits.

I personally think that it's the responsibility of the modder to keep their changes in line with the MPP - not the other way around.

[-__^]

I personally think that it's the responsibility of the modder to keep their changes in line with the MPP - not the other way around.

Agreed :nod:

[Pumpkin]

The compatibility issue is what is the concern. Some methods to fully fix bugs are going to cause conflicts, and excluding fixes for the sake of compatibility is a frustrating decision. But let's face it, at this point, there's no incentive to fully patch the game if it's going to cause a myriad of issues with compatibility for mods that were released years ago.

It is the strangest decision I ever heard of. You cease your work on the greatest datafix available, because of some stupid incompatible mods? Let all these "complainers" take their so-much-needed mods and rewrite them to support MPP, because MPP is a must have for this game!!

I changed only the one forementioned cell, which in hindsight, I should've left alone. There are a lot of misspelled cells, but fixing them would cause even more compatibility issues.

I think I know how to avoid this. I'm playing Russian version of the game, where all translation of the cells names were exported in the separate "morrowind.cel" file where all original names have their corresponding translations and divided by tab delimiter (and so, any change of the translations in the file will affect the game itself, but not the CS data). I think this can be somehow made for English version too. Ask Hrnchamd, I've sent him Russian version text engine and launch file earlier and he is a god-of-the-code, maybe he knows how to make this for the original.

[Craig Martin]

Let's give this topic a bump.

First, I've made this list of bugs into a bunch of modular patches:
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=36373
One for scripts, one for books, one for dialogue+quests, one for objects.
This fixes most of the bugs mentioned in this topic (except for Pilgrim's Path, which I plan to do later, and for the too-early delivery of Stalhrim armor, which is not bug enough to me).
Does anyone know of more MPP-unfixed issues?

Second, I am still not really satisfied about what is going on with MPP.
What exactly about MPP 1.6.5beta affects the balancing in a bad way? What exactly is incompatible with other mods, and what exactly other mods? I still believe it would be easier to clean these few offending changes out of the MPP1.6.5 rather than going back to 1.6.3 and doing all the legit changes again. Besides, my experience with old mods is that when they are incompatible with newer ones, it is usually the old ones' fault; nowadays modders tend to be way more careful and clean.

[Mashystar]

I would like to add my voice to support the preemptive nature of the MPP over any other mod out there. Lets face it, "compatibility" patches should be more of the responsability of modders who should stay in line with ongoing generic bugfix mods such as the MPP or MCP.

Sure Morrowind is a very old game with old popular mods, sometimes not supported by their creators for ages now. Nevertheless, I find it more logical and beneficial to follow the lead of big mods enhancing the game in almost every aspect than to revert to an old state for the sake of a few disgruntled. That being said, the collaborative nature of the people in these forums should resolve many of the conflicting issues encountered

Oh and I would like to thanks quorn and arvythrend for your contributions to this great project. :thumbsup:

Edit: A suggestion to arvythrend. You could edit the OP with the list of your added fixes you just posted for more visibility

[Charlotte X]

I'm using 1.65b and the following things about it are irritating.
I actually made a personal patch to UNDO these changes:

1. Resist Paralysis base cost was increased from 0.2 to 2.0. This means some previously valid enchanted items can no longer be made. This seems like a game balance change and not a bug-fix.

2. The summoned Golden Saint corpse persist was turned on. Through summoning, it's now possible to create permanent corpses with infinite carrying capacity wherever you choose.

Also, I think it's claimed that winged twilight corpse persist was turned on, but it's actually not!
Also, I think Staada should have corpse persist on since she carries sheogorath's ring.

[Tammie Flint]

I'm going to fix Staada in my patch, good point.

Globule: yes, I am going to put a link in my first post. Good idea.

[+++CAZZY]

I wasn't aware of the corpse persist thing, but my mod does re-balance most spell effects, including the resist parlaysis thing.

[Unstoppable Judge]

BTB, ya but your mod is SUPPOSED to be balance mod
Bug fixes shouldn't try to rebalance things IMO.

I don't understand the permacorpse summons - is that supposed to fix a bug (crash or something)?

[Ash]

Yes, it is. Formerly, trying to loot a summoned creature (which is a kind of cheating, of course) used to lead to a crash with some chance. Quote the changelog:

* disposing of a summoned creature's corpse will crash the game, corrected, summons set to corpses persist

[Christine]

(deleted)

[Baylea Isaacs]

I can't believe my own eyes, MPP v1.6.4 isn't available on Planet Elder Scrolls anymore. After all this hard work you have done quorn. I don't agree with a small number of fixes, but use a personal cleaned version in my game, but 98% of the changes a brilliant work and I still admire that huge effort you have done.

[Patrick Gordon]

Right, quorn its not fun anymore. Please come back ! Morrowind needs you. The people here needs you. Tamriel needs you !

Edit: arvythrend, have you seen BTB's slightly edited version of the MPP on http://btb2.free.fr/morrowind.html ?

[Kill Bill]

Uh, did I miss something here? Why was the download taken down? :mellow: