the reason people get all uppity about morrowind is because for most (myself as well) it was their first TES game, and morrowind catapulted you to a seperate world within its own fantasy world. morrowinds lore has almost nothing to do with the rest of tamriel. for most of us, we had to read the books to figure out just what the hell tamriel was, in addition to learning about the houses, chimer, dunmer, velothi, daedra, the tribunal, mournhold etc. once youve gotten to oblivion, you already know half of whats going on and can familiarize yourself alot better. going into skyrim the only things i wasnt familiar with was all the gaps that they had to fill to make this into a game, like all the random locales, people, and the fact its 200 years ahead of TES 4, and one of the coolest things about skyrim was the fact that i was disgusted that talos was removed and it is now the "Eight divines."

clearly skyrims gameplay is superior, in every way. anyone who says morrowinds gameplay is better is living in the past. and the reason morrowinds lore was better was like i said, there was so much you were just thrown into, it was almost overwhelming.

Better than not having skill levels matter at all. Level Smithing to 100, put all perks from level-ups in Archery. Derp. Skyrim is much easier to exploit without even trying.

It's not that Morrowind didn't have issues. But both Oblivion and Skyrim did the same thing. Remove content/depth and add their own set of issues.

The core of the RPG experience is not stats and combat roles but meaningful choices and consequences. This is what I'm referring to when I say that many gamers today don't know what the term "role playing game" really means. Show them a stat sheet and they go, "Oh, that's an RPG," when that's not it at all. Of all of Bethesda's games, Fallout 3 gets the closest to a hardcoe RPG experience because there is a lot of opportunity to make story shaping choices beyond "Yes, I will do your quest" and "No, I will not do your quest".

That said, I'm still having tons of fun with the game.

I invested soooo many hours into Morrowind...More than I'd like to admit! :wink_smile: And I also thought it was better than Oblivion, perhaps not the combat, but as far as actually telling a story and immersing you into the lore, Morrowind had Oblivion beat by far. (I absolutely loved the Dark Brotherhood quest line though)

That being said, Skyrim has really wow'ed me and is continuing to do so. I feel that NPC's are real characters in this instead of carbon copies of one another, and their reactions actually mean more to me than in Oblivion. The quest are MUCH more immersive, like how they were in Morrowind. I've got to say, I think Skyrim has Morrowind beat. I can roleplay much easier in Skyrim than Oblivion.

Yeah, gotta love the elitism in these parts.

And my personal favourite: You don't agree, you obviously haven't played Morrowind, you are below 15, you are a console kiddie and you are the target audience. The old master race of Morrowind players are ignored, because everybody who would play morrowind would instantly agree that it's the best thing ever, without any flaws. :teehee:

As an RPG, Daggerfall is still best.

Daggerfall > Morrowind > Skyrim/Oblivion.

As an open-world adventure game though? I'd say it's a tough call between Morrowind and Skyrim.

Bingo. In a true RPG, a character with low intelligence shouldn't know the solution to a difficult puzzle even if the player does.

Things that are RPG elements:

Anything in which the character's skills, abilities, knowledge, and/or attributes determines the outcome of the player's choices.

Things that are not RPG elements by default:

Exploration

Dialogue

Story

Stats

Quests

Levels

Lore

Character Development

Weapon Options

Armor Options

Crafting

Combat


Now, anything on that list can become an RPG element as long as it follows the rule above. It can also remain a non-RPG element and still add (in some cases, immensely) to an RPG. However, none of them are required for an RPG to be a good RPG.

Please remember that publishers like to use the term "RPG" in order to sell games. They do not necessarily use the term correctly, especially considering that real RPG are not ever going to be very popular because the average gamer prefers action/adventure (games where the player's skill is relied upon).

Personally, I voted Morrowind, but I dont actually think its a better game. Its just that the aspects that make a game an RPG make morrowind better. When it comes to combat, Skyrim by FAR, no contest. When it comes to graphics, once again, Skyrim by far. When it comes to having a npc actually have a life, Skyrim by far (I actually was running around Markarth earlier, looking for dungeons, when i happened across Farkas and two other Companions members just hunting bears. I stopped to talk to Farkas thinking, SURELY this is scripted, but he had nothing new to say, he was just living his own life, doing his own stuff on his own time. I thought that was freaking awesome.) But when it comes to immersing me in a game world, having the story be epic, making me ENTERTAINED by just reading/hearing text, Morrowind. If Bethesda could merge the epic storytelling of Morrowind, and its vast gameworld, with the HIGHLY advanced combat, npc lifecycles, graphics, and non combat things (Such as jobs, smithing, stuff like that.) Then I think they would make the greatest RPG in the history of video gaming.

Edit: I forgot to mention level scaling, I hate it. And if they used the old morrowind method, things would be much better ;P

So then true RPGs don't exist.


Good thing Skyrim have these.

I'm not buying Skyrim since it is a Steamworks title so I don't know anything about what it does or does not have. I was just pointing out the rule for determining if something is actually an RPG or not.

Can you give me a quick list of RPG elements from Skyrim?

morrowind is a classic, but it suffers from some really terrible flaws (combat, no fast travel, poor graphics)

skyrim is better because it fixed most of these

Hit the nail on the head.

there is only one true RPG and its called real life. the next closest thing would be a table top game, which begs the question why these guys are wasting their time on a video game. even in baldurs gate you had to be good and use effective tactics. in their world your characters would just play for you and it would be like watching a horrible 2d movie. if your character is an idiot with 1 intelligence explain how he has the tact to out manuever foes and coordinate with his allies seamlessly, or find a way to outwit the all powerful jon irenicus?? you cant explain it, i cant explain it, and these "rpg purists" certainly cannot either.

its like talking to a wall around here.

sure, just to clarify, for my personal preference of why i prefer Skyrim over Morrowind -

Morrowind was great when i first got it and i probably put in around a 100 hours into it, exploring and doing quests. It was visually a big jump up from Daggerfall and felt huge in scope while playing through. However ,I found the combat just plain irritating in it though, with the whiffing and such.
I should say that i prefer the more western medieval type settings to be honest. I wasn`t a great fan of Telvanni architecture etc. like the "Mushrooms" construction in Morrowind. I also wasn`t greatly enamored with Vivec City either and it`s layout. I just couldnt get into the weird "alien" fantasy feel of Morrowind like i have with Skyrim`s setting. Maybe thats because i prefer a more Tolkienesque type of fantasy setting though?.

I love roleplaying a hulking barbarian in Skyrim, who is torn between his love over his homeland and fellow Nords, yet sickened by the racist views of Ulfric and his cohorts.
The overall atmosphere, grim, forboding, harsh, with weather to match it - exploring in Blizzards is amazing, it just adds even more to the RP experience for me. I prefer the snowstorms of Skyrim to the Duststorms of Red Mountain :tongue:
I love the masses of books and lore scattered around, and that dungeons often have little stories or journals to be found. The neverending little quests that keep popping up via Radiant Story is great. The chance encounters like bumping into members of your companion guild while on another quest seperate from them or the random encounters that can happen. The huge world to explore with many hidden things waiting for you. I love crafting my own weapons and armor, being self sufficient.
The visual atmosphere...just sitting on top of the throat of the world at night, gazing out..priceless.
I also love the combat for a two handed brute in Skyrim. It feels visceral in melee, but then i enjoy the Cinematic hacking/decapitate finishers that others might not like.

I`m not bothered about Faction quests that much, as i love games that leave it up to you to let your imagination run riot and play out the story of your character. The radiant story generating quests and respawning dungeons mean theres always plenty of dungeon delving for my Nord to do, for a long, long time.

Skyrim is just a fantastic big sandbox to play in, if you enjoy the toys present in it. It also has a great amount of replayability, through the aforementioned random encounters and radiant generated minor quests. I`ve already seen my GF getting totally different quests/dungeons for the Companion quests over what i had..

For a Conan loving type, who wants to see his hulking brute warrior living out his adventures in a way that Robert E Howard would be proud of, Skyrim ticks all the boxes...for me

As an RPG i would say Morrowind is a long way ahead of Skyrim.

As a game, i would say Morrowind is marginally better than Skyrim.

I was giving an example and not saying that every RPG necessarily has that particular feature.

But to answer your question, in the original Fallout, the intelligence stat would determine your character's literacy and the dialog choices you were presented. Make the intelligence stat low enough and your character could only communicate using simple phrases and grunts. The intelligence stat even affected his perception of the environment. For example, an intelligent character would correctly perceive that the voice he hears is being broadcast by a loud speaker while an unintelligent character would be convinced that someone was trapped inside a box and become greatly confused when he rips the front off only to find a bundle of wires.

Wait, Morrowind was bad because of no fast travel?

I don't like running across provinces, back and forth, all the damn time but that is a stupid thing to call a "Flaw."

I think you may be missing the point that the "purists" are trying to make. A pure RPG will always play like a "Choose your own adventure book" because you are not playing the game, your character is. You simply make the choices and then your character acts them out and either succeeds or fails based on his abilities. Because this type of game is not popular, most game developers have added more and more action/adventure elements to the game to make them more interactive (and less of an RPG).

The question asked was "Is Morrowind a better RPG?" If Morrowind relies more on the character's abilities and less on the player's abilities whereas Skyrim relies more on the player's abilities and less on the character's abilities then the answer to that question is "Yes, Morrowind is a better RPG". That does not necessarily make Morrowind a better game, or more popular (in fact, it will probably make it less popular overall but more popular with people to enjoy real RPGs).

i can headshot people all day with arrows but if i have 10 archery and 100 2hand skill im obviously not going to kill [censored] until i start using a 2hand weapon. how does that not rely on my characters stats?? this game clearly has RPG elements, they are just different the hit/miss system that is so outdated and frustrating its not funny, they just compensate for it by your attacks doing very low damage. same goes with magic. i can run around with 900 health and 100 mana and 0 magic skills and not get [censored] done, and its not because i cant hit anyone.

oh and as for social choices that you can make, dont read the spoiler if you havent beaten the game

I'm not sure what your point is...
if you reread my posts you will see that in order to answer the question correctly, one must look at every aspect of the game and determine which aspects are RPG elements and which are not. Only then can you answer the question. I also stated that I have not played Skyrim (and won't) so I am not answer the question, I'm just trying to clear up what appears to still be a misunderstanding between you and some of the other posters here.

then the sad fact is there is no game that is a pure rpg, and there never will be one. this thread has boiled down to people coming up with some devils advocate response about how some aspect of whatever game (skyrim in this case) svcks, and i will find an aspect of any "RPG" you guys can bring forth and explain why it also svcks and why it needs elements of an action game.

You make an interesting point (not the one you intended to make) that most of Skyrim's choices revolve around becoming better at killing people, so the possibilities for interesting role playing situations are actually very limited. Compare that to Dragon Age: Origins where a large part of the game actually takes place during conversations where your character stats affect the dialog choices you are given.

your party members can dislike you and like you more in that game based on dialouge. same thing in all the TES games. your party members can even turn on you in DAO. i can kill ANYONE in TES. theres a spoiler i posted also explaining some of the social decisions you can make in skyrim. id say i have more freedom to roleplay as anything i want in TES, whether i want to chop wood and sell it, hunt animals and cook food/sell hides, or even join a warring faction (huge social decision) where as in DAO the game is based solely around saving faerun and killing the dragon lich and youre essentially forced on that path with almost gimmicky choices you can make along the way. there is nothing to do in DAO other than follow the story.

im forced to play that way in DAO, and i can do whatever the hell i want and avoid the main quest all together in TES. I am blown away that you people think TES has less roleplaying than a bioware title.

Skyrim has some annoying little things:
1. Too frequent dragons+their skeletons should just burn away imo.
2. Lockpicking tree is useless.
3. Easy to exploit crafting skills even though the crafting is otherwise great.
4. The game sort of punishes you of trying to make hybrid character.
5. Sometimes the graphics look mediocre(other times the game looks simply stunning).
6. The UI isnt "made for pc"..I mean it could have been much more mouse friendly but doesnt bug me much.
7. I would like more options to be really evil.

Some good things that I wasnt expecting:
1. The leveling+skill system is great. Adding the perks and only having 3 attributes makes it really intuitive but theres still a lot of depth for powergamers. I absolutely hated Oblivions system.
2. Really great quests. Almost rivals the Witcher 2 drunk quest. :hubbahubba:
3. Necromancy is AWESOME. Especially the Dead Thrall spell has almost unlimited potential. You get to have pretty much any dead guy as your zombie slave with all their abilities. Ive had stuff like master vampire that I found laying dead in some torturing room and a certain mage boss from the college line. And sometimes when you kill the thrall it shispers "Thank you" in its dying breath. How amazingly evil is that?!
4. The spell system. I know lot of people want spellmaking but I actually think its much better this way. Now the different spells have some actual meaning instead of just being same boring stuff with different names. They clearly thought this a lot and imo they made the right move to remove spellmaking.
5. The game runs perfectly on high settings on my few years old pc(Intel E8400, Radeon 4850 toxic 1GB, 4gigs RAM). Amazingly few bugs or crashes for a new game.

Im 33 years old and Ive played pc and console games over 20 years. Im trying to think of a better rpg than Skyrim but not having any luck. And Ive always been a massive BG2 and FFVII fan. Skyrim is by far the best TES.