Mortals on the Shivering Isles

Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:53 pm

He would have probably been comparatively decent to his followers if they actually had succeeded. He'd have probably tasked them with lording over and abusing the other citizens of Tamriel.

Of course, since they failed him, he's probably torturing them for eternity right about now. Especially Mankar Camoran and Jagar Tharn.
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QuinDINGDONGcey
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:42 pm

It also struck me as odd, but apparently the people in the city had never seen an argonian before questioning Mere-Glim. The city itself is an "stolen" fragment of Clavicus Vile's realm (a piece of Clavicus itself?), so I'm guessing there were no argonians there by the time it was broken free and started to float its way to Mundus.

I was hoping someone would come up with this on their own, but oh well.

That requires a lot of supposition and implies that everyone in the Fragment died and their souls immediately recycled through the Ingenium, which isn't out of the realm of possibility, but it has a lot rather bad implications for those Daedra stuck there too.

A more efficient answer is because Argonians aren't Ehlnofex. They're (basically) sapientized fauna and not truly a part of the Et'ada. Of course, this begs the question, then, why did it only take Et'ada fragments in the first place? To that I don't have an answer.
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Liv Staff
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:54 pm

He would have probably been comparatively decent to his followers if they actually had succeeded. He'd have probably tasked them with lording over and abusing the other citizens of Tamriel.

Of course, since they failed him, he's probably torturing them for eternity right about now. Especially Mankar Camoran and Jagar Tharn.

Hahahaha!! They deserve it.
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Pumpkin
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:58 am

Hahahaha!! They deserve it.




While neither of these men are likely candidates for humanism awards, you must recognize their creativity, brilliance and tenacity. If only they'd dedicated their lives of extensive magical studies to actually helping make Tamriel a better place rather than plotting to destroy it.

I was hoping someone would come up with this on their own, but oh well.

That requires a lot of supposition and implies that everyone in the Fragment died and their souls immediately recycled through the Ingenium, which isn't out of the realm of possibility, but it has a lot rather bad implications for those Daedra stuck there too.

A more efficient answer is because Argonians aren't Ehlnofex. They're (basically) sapientized fauna and not truly a part of the Et'ada. Of course, this begs the question, then, why did it only take Et'ada fragments in the first place? To that I don't have an answer.




Isn't it explicitly stated in the Monomyth that the Hist came from a different planet from the ancestors of Elves and Men? This would make Argonians a truly alien species - the farthest removed from the origins of all the Men and Elves including Khajiit.
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Ian White
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:22 pm

Based off a quick re-skim of creation sources, I don't see terribly much reference to the Argonians or Hist (aside from one little bit quoted below), but from what we do know, the Argonians might've been nonsentient animals that the Hist re-purposed and changed.

On the world of Nirn, all was chaos. The only survivors of the twelve worlds of Creation were the Ehlnofey and the Hist. The Ehlnofey are the ancestors of Mer and Men. The Hist are the trees of Argonia. Nirn originally was all land, with interspersed seas, but no oceans.

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Gwen
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:36 pm

Hi!

I want to know how the mortal people at the Shivering Isles actually came there? Was there another gate back in the past? If not, how could they have passed the Gatekeeper and how can it be that in such a short period of time, they all got houses and jobs and villages and so on?

May be a silly question. But I want to roleplay a character that lives on the Shivering Isles so its important.

Thanks in Advance.

Sel


It's been years since I last played SI (or Oblivion for that matter), but if I recall correctly there were bits of dialogue in Passwall which, to me, indicated that the town existed independently of its inhabitants (as one would expect of a Daedric Realm), and that they just "took over" when they happenchanced across it. I believe this may be extrapolated to SI as a whole: those "worthy" enough find a way to enter, where they take over what's already there, and do whatever job they choose/are best at.

Of course, that is only immigration taken into account. I can only guess about the Isles' natural demographics, i.e. when two mortals have a child together in the Shivering Isles (as people can die there, as evinced by the gravestones outside New Sheoth, it's only natural to assume they can be born there as well).

I had a look-see on the UESP and found the snippets of dialogue which I'm alluding to:

Shelden (the "mayor"): "The place was pretty deserted when I got here. Of course, once I was here, others followed. Can't say I blame them."
Dredwhen (the "innkeeper"): "I took over the inn when I got here. There wasn't anyone living here, except for Shelden, who says he's mayor. Don't believe him."
Nanette Don, when asked about town: "I don't know who built it. It was here before any of us arrived. It looks like other people lived here before. Dredhwen's been selling what they left behind. So, if you need something, talk to her. She's in the Wastrel's Purse."
Jayred Ice-Veins: "I followed the bones. They lead me here. I just moved in when I got here. No one seemed to mind. Everyone here seems to be waiting for something."

It's not unlikely that there've been gates to SI in the past, but my knowledge concerning such events is pretty limited (which is a nice way of saying I don't have a clue at all).

To pass the Gatekeeper, one needn't necessarily slay him - one needs to be judged "worthy" (i.e. insane enough) to pass through.

Felas Serandas: "The Gatekeeper makes sure that no-one gets in, who isn't supposed to."
Nanette Don: "The Gatekeeper should take care of anyone who doesn't belong." and "The doors are unlocked now? Interesting. It doesn't really matter to me, though. I can come and go as I please. Sheogorath has judged me worthy."
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Natalie Taylor
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:27 pm

The way I see it, Sheogorath is but a voice for the Tree of Madness, literally the real power behind the throne.


No! Sheogorath is the embodiment of the concept of chaos/madness. He is not a simple tree. The tree of madness is just one of the symbolic representations of Sheogorath's power within the realm. It occupies the same place in terms of symbolism as the Staff of Madness and the Throne of Madness and the Fountain of Madness, all of those are the symbols for which Sheogorath enables in order to function in the mythic. He could easily have enabled a "Cow of Madness" to fulfill the same role.

Don't get caught up in the symbols, they are merely tools for Sheogorath (a pure concept/idea/god) to use in a finite reality. He is in actuality more than the sum of all that is in his realm. The realm is just a mega symbolism of his sphere, his sphere is an idea not a physical thing.

The CoC became the new personification of this idea of madness in the ES universe, through the enabling of symbolism in the mythic, which is to say Sheogorath deliberately facilitated the CoC's mantling. The gods in ES can do this by revealing or gifting to someone the symbols central to their interactions in the material world.
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Amber Ably
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:26 pm

No! Sheogorath is the embodiment of the concept of chaos/madness. He is not a simple tree. The tree of madness is just one of the symbolic representations of Sheogorath's power within the realm. It occupies the same place in terms of symbolism as the Staff of Madness and the Throne of Madness and the Fountain of Madness, all of those are the symbols for which Sheogorath enables in order to function in the mythic. He could easily have enabled a "Cow of Madness" to fulfill the same role.

Don't get caught up in the symbols, they are merely tools for Sheogorath (a pure concept/idea/god) to use in a finite reality. He is in actuality more than the sum of all that is in his realm. The realm is just a mega symbolism of his sphere, his sphere is an idea not a physical thing.

The CoC became the new personification of this idea of madness in the ES universe, through the enabling of symbolism in the mythic, which is to say Sheogorath deliberately facilitated the CoC's mantling. The gods in ES can do this by revealing or gifting to someone the symbols central to their interactions in the material world.

The way I see it, the Tree is more than just a symbol; its roots extend all over (or rather, under) the isles, creating the duality of Mania and Dementia, and when Sheogorath reverted to Jyggalag, it remained and things remained as they were (at least outside of areas conquered by Order). From it came the Staff, from it the staff was empowered and a new Sheogorath was bound to it.


That's my two Septims anyway.
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Fiori Pra
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:00 pm

It's not a Tower at all, but the tree is LIKE a Tower in that it is what's responsible for shaping the creatia into the Isles.
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roxxii lenaghan
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:38 pm



Alternatively, Sheogorath creates everyone in the Isles


there is a guy in a town in SI who used to live in Chaedhall
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SamanthaLove
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:11 pm

-By the end of SI, Sheogorath is gone, and his realm is still active. Therefore it cannot be a Daedric realm, given that Princes and their realms are each other.


Sheogorath is not gone because
Spoiler
you are sheogorath at the end

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Marlo Stanfield
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:44 pm

IMO you do become Sheogorath at the end. The only reason why you can shift about through the three realms accessible to the player is because the Dragon Fires are NEVER lit throughout the entire game, not the beginning, not while delivering the amulet, not while finding spies, not while going through a Great Gate, and not at the end, therefore the gate/s to Nirn is open.
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Karine laverre
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:28 am

IMO you do become Sheogorath at the end. The only reason why you can shift about through the three realms accessible to the player is because the Dragon Fires are NEVER lit throughout the entire game, not the beginning, not while delivering the amulet, not while finding spies, not while going through a Great Gate, and not at the end, therefore the gate/s to Nirn is open.

But there's some leeway time after the Dragon Fires going out and the barrier to Oblivion going down. Dagon couldn't jump into Mundus as soon as the Fires went out, so neither could Sheogorath. The way I understand it, by the end of the Greymarch you had mantled Sheogorath, but it will take time before you become the avatar of Sheogorath. During this time, you're free to go back and forth and do whatever, but once you become the avatar, you'll be locked to the Isles.
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SexyPimpAss
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:10 pm

But there's some leeway time after the Dragon Fires going out and the barrier to Oblivion going down. Dagon couldn't jump into Mundus as soon as the Fires went out, so neither could Sheogorath. The way I understand it, by the end of the Greymarch you had mantled Sheogorath, but it will take time before you become the avatar of Sheogorath. During this time, you're free to go back and forth and do whatever, but once you become the avatar, you'll be locked to the Isles.

Dagon wanted to wait to see how much the Mythic Dawn could do on their own. Obviously, that didn't work out too well. That's why he strolled so late in at the last stages of the MQ
Sheo has no intention on destruction, so thats why he strolls in whenever he wants to
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Michael Korkia
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:02 pm

deadric realms can be colonized, remember cyrodil, just another plane of Oblivion
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Kat Ives
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:09 pm

deadric realms can be colonized, remember cyrodil, just another plane of Oblivion


I don't believe Nirn is a plane of oblivion, as the Aedra helped create it. Daedra are specifically described as those who did not participate in creation, while Lorkhan had just about everything to do with creation, meaning he couldn't be Daedric. I'm assuming your basing this off the commentary of Mankar Camoran who is a radical, so it's hard to take him seriously.
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Rob Davidson
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:43 pm

I don't believe Nirn is a plane of oblivion, as the Aedra helped create it. Daedra are specifically described as those who did not participate in creation, while Lorkhan had just about everything to do with creation, meaning he couldn't be Daedric. I'm assuming your basing this off the commentary of Mankar Camoran who is a radical, so it's hard to take him seriously.

well Daedric realms could have been created by someone else, but ruled by the princes
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Charlotte Buckley
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:30 am

I don't believe Nirn is a plane of oblivion, as the Aedra helped create it. Daedra are specifically described as those who did not participate in creation, while Lorkhan had just about everything to do with creation, meaning he couldn't be Daedric. I'm assuming your basing this off the commentary of Mankar Camoran who is a radical, so it's hard to take him seriously.

iirc Lorhkan created Mundus, and isn't that everything?
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Siobhan Thompson
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:41 am

Dagon wanted to wait to see how much the Mythic Dawn could do on their own.

Dagon's goal was to invade and destroy Tamriel. The Mythic Dawn's goal was to get Dagon to invade Tamriel, in hopes of making things revert back to a time when elves were gods. The Mythic Dawn was waiting for Dagon to invade while they played hide-the-amulet (their gates and attacks were done in hopes of keeping the Empire busy, and to speed things along). Dagon had no reason to wait if he could jump right through.

iirc Lorhkan created Mundus, and isn't that everything?

Mundus is the mortal plane(t), and was created by Lorkhan and the Eight Divines. It was Lorkhan's idea, but eight Aedra put themselves into it along with him (depending on who you ask, they were tricked by him).
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Susan
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:24 pm

I agree. Major fan of the "Haskill is Sheogorath" theory, myself.


I agree. Haskill can't be injured, let alone killed. He also knows everything about the shivering isles. He's the perfect choice.
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Emma
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:06 pm

It makes him the perfect choice to be majodomo, thoughtful, unobtrusive and very orderly. I especially liked irritating him with the summoning spell.
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Kahli St Dennis
 
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Post » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:59 pm

Guys arguing about Sheogorath and who 'he' is, I think this is a pretty solid explanation.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1096021-arden-sul
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willow
 
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