Still. The Fighters' Guild had no right to kill of competition. They may've been brutal, but the people liked them more so they got contracts. The Fighters' Guild butchered them without justification.

Also, necromancy is legal, save for Morrowind, and heavily restricted in Summerset Ilse. Heck, even the imperial government sponsors necromancers by donating dead bodies of bandits to them.

Thank you Hellmouth, that's a great point (almost a trump card).

They killed several Fighters Guild members, including the Guildmaster's son, they smuggled a Hist Tree into Cyrodiil, and killed many innocent people as a result of their reliance on Hist sap. Not to mention betraying one of their employers to Anazi Blackheart. Sounds justified to me.

Sorry, that was meant to be sarcastic.


I’m having a little bit of trouble reconciling this view of the King of Worms based on the fact that he made you jump through a few hoops to get what you wanted. By that same logic, Hasphat Antabolis at the Balmora Fighter’s Guild is a sociopath because he made you retrieve the Dwemer Puzzle Box.

It is inconsistent to paint this picture of Mannimarco as an unabashed sociopath while also acknowledging that no less a dignitary than Queen Barenziah herself would seek his aid in the arranged wedding of her only daughter to the King of Firsthold.


I have to say that I am leaning toward this opinion too. As I understand it, and please correct me if I am wrong, during the Dragon Break Mannimarco received the Totem of Tiber Septim and gained control of Numidium. He was then able to use Mantella to ascend into Aetherius where he established himself as a god made manifest by the Necromancer’s Moon. However, Akatosh repaired the effect of the Dragon Break and cast Mannimarco back to the mortal realm. Since the Necromancer’s Moon still exists we can imply that Akatosh is either a) somehow limited in the amount of damage that he could repair, or B) unwilling to set everything on Nirn back to the way it was.

Personally, I think (a) makes more sense, at least in the way that it mirrors the fact that Azura could punish the Chimer for the Tribunal’s treachery in using the tools to achieve apotheosis, but she couldn’t reverse the effects on the Tribunal itself (she couldn’t un-deify them).


The 'Fighter’s Guild' didn’t kill anyone. Modryn Oreyn repeatedly warned the Guildmaster about the threat posed by the Blackwood Company, and was just as repeatedly rebuffed. Even after the murder of the Guildmaster’s own son at the hands of the Blackwood Company, the Guildmaster refused to act against them. Instead, she expelled Modryn Oreyn from the Guild. Acting without Guild sanction, Oreyn resolved to take retribution for his dishonored (former) Guild.

Fargoth, Gaenor, Glarthir, Uuras the Shepherd, and the Adoring Fan.

I dont remember saying anything bad about necromancers and i also think that we got the wrong impresion of necromany in OB
but when that is said Mannimarco/King of Worms is still a mean :swear:

there is no light or dark only shades of grey.

A few that come to mind are:

Mannimarco

Almalexia

Vivec

Mankar Camoran

The Camoran Usurper

Jagar Tharn

Edit: Possibly Kagrenac, depending on which theory about the dwemer and the battle of Red Mountain you subscribe to.

Mannimarco is not evil.

Mannimarco is evil, simply for the fact that (as he reveals) he killed arch mages and turned them to thralls and possibly other desecrations. He had absolutely no qualms about butchering, maiming and experimenting on people with necromancy. That is unrepentantly evil.

Personally I dont believe this, him going through all that trouble just to get a few thralls and memories... That was just one of the stupid things Mannimarco the Altmer said to get more attention and feel bigger.
My own theory is that the King of Worms was divided, into the Necromancers Moon and into himself somewhere on Nirn/Tamriel. However that mortal self is not the Mannimarco who tried to defeat the Mages Guild (why the hell would he do that?), but some other guy who is instead trying to merge himself with the Necromancers Moon, thereby fulfilling his goal and becoming a complete god.

Akatosh wouldnt have anything to say about this since it would just be a merge, not necessarily a Dragon Break (I think...).

I also believe that the Necromancers Moon also wants to merge itself with its other half to complete itself. It is propably not as powerful as it would be if it was whole and more of a living moon than a god.

Themp3:
Anyways, for the first thing, The KoW wasnt expecting you in Scourg Barrow and that is propably one of the main reasons he didnt lower the resistance (or maybe it wouldnt matter, who knows?). That zombie he sent you was just a show of his power. A "I can get you anywhere, anytime, anyhow so you better do like I say!". Not much more evil than anything else you see in the world.

I don't care what you say, the creep that orchestrated Lucien's death and tried to kill the Night Mother is evil to me. :swear: Poor Lachance...

He killed the spy the MG sent. Like all necromancers, he studies death (and the Empire encourages it). The most evil thing I can think of is that he wants Arkay gone, and even then, I can't blame him.

It doesn't matter what Mannimarco did before Oblivion. In Oblivion he revealed himself to be a right sadistic bastard, as in unrepentantly evil. He had zero remorse when he revealed that he had killed and enthralled other archmages (most probably from the other provinces). There isn't a sympathetic bone in his body. As for getting back at Arkay, that's neither here nor there, but it doesn't help his case either.

Also wanting to destroy the mages guild just because they're understandbly squirmish about reanimating and manipulating cadavers, makes him creepy.

They banned it, actually a good chunk of the MG was necromancers. So they started practicing, but then what? The MG strikes? So they retaliate? Wow, totally evil.

The King of Worms cult attacked first. The Mages Guild eventually retaliated.

Personally I just believe Mannimarco in Oblivion was some guy who was thrown out because of being a Necromancer, then assembled other people who also had been thrown out and tried to have vengeance. He called himself the King of Worms to make people he was the King of Worms, or atleast make them think that he was sort of a new King of Worms. A new leader of the Necromancers...

Sorry for double post, told me I had to wait 60 seconds all the time...

It's all up to what you considers evil here.

So.

Jagarn Tharn

Mannimarco

Ranis Athrys

Cant think of anyone else at the moment.

Actually the Necros seemed to have made the first strike iirc. They attacked the MG's grove for creating the Mage staffs, after that attack Travern was forced to take the offensive, outside of outlawing the practice.

Oh yes. And Traven can't outlaw necromancy. He already banned it before that. Necromancy is legal and approved by the Empire. The Necromancers were mad so they decided to get even. Traven said, "Necromancers are banned, get out."

Necromancers packed their bags and a few got mad and took out a few of them to make a point, "Listen, we're not gone, Traven."

They got mad, because they were kicked out. A few got mad and retaliated, and Traven decided, "Fine, this means war."

Could've been avoided if Traven wasn't so touchy-feeley about dead things.

Go back to the beginning, on Artaeum. Vanus Galerion and Mannimarco are the two brightest students in the Psijic Order. Galerion discovers that Mannimarco is secretly experimenting with necromancy. Necromancy is a practice forbidden by the Psijics because it stands in opposition to the sacred teachings of ancestor worship followed by the Aldmer. Galerion rats Mannimarco out to the Psijic Council. Unlike Galerion, the Council DOES NOT see Mannimarco as this all encompassing evil because they do not execute him on the spot. All they do is cast him out of the Order. This, along with their reluctance to share the teachings of magic with all and sundry, causes Galerion to leave the Order and found the Mage’s Guild.

Meanwhile, Mannimarco begins to consolidate his power by drawing followers from all over Tamriel. Even the noble families seek out his counsel and/or assistance. Mannimarco continues to accrue more and more power until he eventually succeeds in transforming himself into an undying lich.

As for Galerion, he eventually leaves the Mage’s Guild that he founded (seeing it as a ‘morass’). He operates out of Firsthold and gathers other magic users to him (presumably to MAKE UNPROVOKED WAR against Mannimarco and his necromancers). Galerion, along with the Mage’s Guild and the Knights of the Lamp, confront Mannimarco on the battlefield. Galerion DEMANDS that Mannimarco relinquish his artifacts and stop the practice of necromancy. Mannimarco refuses, war ensues.

One can make a very real case that it is Galerion who is the evil one in this chain of events. He is the one who relentlessly pursues Mannimarco making demands. He is the one who infects the Mages Guild with this prejudice against necromancy that continues to persist, even though it is not considered illegal by the Empire. Everything that happens subsequently (including the events of Oblivion) is directly related to this initial antagonistic spark. Whatever ideas you may have about the practice of necromancy, it remains a viable school of magic. It is no more ‘evil’ than the trapping of the souls of creatures in soul gems, the summoning of daedra from Oblivion, or the use of the school of Illusion to command or enthrall an unwilling subject.

No, it wasn't just a few got mad and took out a few, it was the first strike by Mannimarco and his cult, who were only interested in bringing down the guild.