5 Most Evil Mortals in Tamrielic History : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:56 pm

Well Mannimarco has always wanted that too.

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:38 pm

Oh yes. And Traven can't outlaw necromancy. He already banned it before that. Necromancy is legal and approved by the Empire. The Necromancers were mad so they decided to get even. Traven said, "Necromancers are banned, get out."

Necromancers packed their bags and a few got mad and took out a few of them to make a point, "Listen, we're not gone, Traven."

They got mad, because they were kicked out. A few got mad and retaliated, and Traven decided, "Fine, this means war."

Could've been avoided if Traven wasn't so touchy-feeley about dead things.

Those that attacked the Mages Guild were part of the Order of the Worm. The attacks on the Mages Guild were not disorganized independent efforts but likely planned and coordinated. As I recall, Mannimarco led the attack on the Bruma Guild himself. Only after several such incidents resulting in the deaths of several Mages Guild personnel did the Mages Guild actually retaliate.

As for banning necromancy, the Mages Guild had every right to do so. Even if they ultimately answer to the Empire, they're a self-regulating, self-governing body that is entirely in its right to decide what its members can and can't do. And what it did certainly doesn't justify the Order of the Worm's attacks.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:20 am

Well, I don't think Manni would have cared about the guild, if they didn't make open war on him.

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:12 pm

Well, I don't think Manni would have cared about the guild, if they didn't make open war on him.

They didn't make open war on him, it looked like he was using the recent ban on necromancy to gather the needed manpower (and merpower) to add another powerful Arch-Mage to his collection, both in body and soul. To him it was an opportunity.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:35 am

Well, I don't think Manni would have cared about the guild, if they didn't make open war on him.

They did not make open war on Mannimarco. Mannimarco made open war on the guild. Firing people is not war! Attacking a mages guild grove, killing their members, ambushing the player character, and sacking the Bruma guild hall are open warfare.

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:44 pm

I meant waaaaaaaay back with Galeron, not OB. He is quite old ya know.

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:25 pm

I meant waaaaaaaay back with Galeron, not OB. He is quite old ya know.

Doesn't justify his actions in the least.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:49 am

First and foremost is absolutely that lupine traitor, Potema. Kintyra II is the character with whom I feel the most sympathy in the entire series: as the brief history points out (if not quite accurately), hers was the end of the pure strain of Septim blood in the Imperial Family. Exaggeration to be certain, but one that I will fully endorse. The War of the Red Diamond was a tragedy, and the fate that befell the empress even more so.

But Potema wasn't satisfied with imprisoning poor Kintyra: no, that vengeful monster had to twist and pervert her poor cousin's mind. Poor Pelagius!

All for what? For some dark elf creature to sit on the Seat of Sundered Kings? Blasphemy!

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:55 pm

I suppose I could say Vuhon is the most evil, from what we know. According to Sul he took innocent souls for the ingenium. He also lays waste to tamriel and possibly other dimensions/realms for his own gain.

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:11 pm

Well Mannimarco has always wanted that too.

just because you want to do something evil for a LOOONG time, :shakehead: dosnt make it okay :shakehead:

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:27 pm

I'm going to add Barenziah to my list. I suspect that she was the one who orchestrated the death of H.I.M. Pelagius I, as she was vengeful over her own rejection by the Imperial Family.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:50 am

Um, you do know the creator of the guild left it, because it became a beauracratic cesspool right?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think he wanted them dead, because Galerion attacked him (after he became the first lich). If Mannimarco is evil for wanting to stop Arkay, destroy the Mages' Guild, and continue his studies, then what about the Hero of MAN, Pelinial. If Mannimarco is evil, that guy is the epitome of wickedness. Mannimarco isn't good, but Whitestrake is a blind crusader who slaughtered thousands.

So I think battling the Mages' Guild isn't truly evil. They fought first (Galerion, Founder of the Mages' Guild tried to kill him and miserably failed). Mannimarco killed a lot of people, but he didn't do so without justificiation.

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:08 pm

Um, you do know the creator of the guild left it, because it became a beauracratic cesspool right?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think he wanted them dead, because Galerion attacked him (after he became the first lich). If Mannimarco is evil for wanting to stop Arkay, destroy the Mages' Guild, and continue his studies, then what about the Hero of MAN, Pelinial. If Mannimarco is evil, that guy is the epitome of wickedness. Mannimarco isn't good, but Whitestrake is a blind crusader who slaughtered thousands.

So I think battling the Mages' Guild isn't truly evil. They fought first (Galerion, Founder of the Mages' Guild tried to kill him and miserably failed). Mannimarco killed a lot of people, but he didn't do so without justificiation.

Do we even know why Mannimarco tried to bring down the Mages Guild. (i dont remember)

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:07 am

Um, you do know the creator of the guild left it, because it became a beauracratic cesspool right?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think he wanted them dead, because Galerion attacked him (after he became the first lich). If Mannimarco is evil for wanting to stop Arkay, destroy the Mages' Guild, and continue his studies, then what about the Hero of MAN, Pelinial. If Mannimarco is evil, that guy is the epitome of wickedness. Mannimarco isn't good, but Whitestrake is a blind crusader who slaughtered thousands.

So I think battling the Mages' Guild isn't truly evil. They fought first (Galerion, Founder of the Mages' Guild tried to kill him and miserably failed). Mannimarco killed a lot of people, but he didn't do so without justificiation.

Why would he want to attack an institution in retaliation for a guy that long left it wronging him? For that matter, he got his revenge on Galerion long ago. This wasn't about revenge, he wanted to capture Arch-Mage Traven's soul and make him an undead thrall.

The difference between Mannimarco and Pelinal is that Mannimarco orchestrated the attack for his own gain, and he struck at the Mages Guild several times before the Mages Guild actually started fighting back. Pelinal, as insane and bloodthirsty as he was, fought in a war against enemy combatants, enemies that had enslaved the Nedes.

Do we even know why Mannimarco tried to bring down the Mages Guild. (i dont remember)

From what I can gather from the Necromancers' actions and Mannimarco's dialogue, it seems his motivation was to capture Traven's soul in the Colossal Soul Gem and make him a Worm Thrall. Since Traven had banned necromancy, there were many out-of-work necromancers bitter at the Mages Guild, allowing him to gather the forces necessary to carry it out.

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:05 pm

Why would he want to attack an institution in retaliation for a guy that long left it wronging him?

Perhaps because that institution is Galerion. It reflects his teachings and, with the ban on necromancy, his beliefs. What we see in Oblivion is just the end(?) of a war that has raged for centuries. One that the Mages Guild started. I find it interesting that you are willing to excuse Pelinal's crimes because they occurred during the bitter campaigns of war, but you are not willing to say the same for Mannimarco.

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:33 pm

Those that attacked the Mages Guild were part of the Order of the Worm. The attacks on the Mages Guild were not disorganized independent efforts but likely planned and coordinated. As I recall, Mannimarco led the attack on the Bruma Guild himself. Only after several such incidents resulting in the deaths of several Mages Guild personnel did the Mages Guild actually retaliate.

As for banning necromancy, the Mages Guild had every right to do so. Even if they ultimately answer to the Empire, they're a self-regulating, self-governing body that is entirely in its right to decide what its members can and can't do. And what it did certainly doesn't justify the Order of the Worm's attacks.

Yes.

A microwave own is not illegal or evil, a microwave club is not illegal or evil. But if you or your club bash people to death with a microwave own you are evil and part of something illegal.
Necromancy may be legal in Cyridiil, but that is no excuse or justify evil actions. Killing innocent for self interest is evil.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:48 am

Mankar Camoran - Genocidal murderer
Jagar Tharn - Power hungry Userper
The Tribunal: Oath breakers, Conspirators of murder and the profane use for the own devices: The heart of Lorkhan.

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:34 pm

The MG didn't just kill Order of Worm, though, they hunted all necromancers.

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:41 pm

Perhaps because that institution is Galerion. It reflects his teachings and, with the ban on necromancy, his beliefs. What we see in Oblivion is just the end(?) of a war that has raged for centuries. One that the Mages Guild started. I find it interesting that you are willing to excuse Pelinal's crimes because they occurred during the bitter campaigns of war, but you are not willing to say the same for Mannimarco.

Unlike the Mages Guild, the Ayleids (or at least some of them) were actively fighting the Nedes. Heck, they had previously enslaved them. When he wasn't consumed by his madness, Pelinal fought against enemy combatants. Mannimarco's underlings did not. There's nothing wrong with the Mages Guild choosing what disciplines it accepts and does not accept; it has every right to decide that necromancy won't be allowed. Prior to the Order of the Worm's attacks on the Mages Guild, the only thing they did to necromancers was expel them from the Guild or refuse to associate with them, something that they were also entirely in their right to do. I understand it could be considered a provocation, but not one that justifies the Order of the Worm's attacks. Nor do I think that Mannimarco was retaliating for Traven's actions at all; I believe he was simply using it as an opportunity to get what he wanted.

The MG didn't just kill Order of Worm, though, they hunted all necromancers.

They didn't hunt necromancers at all. And when the Order of the Worm stepped up on attacking, the Mages Guild retaliated, which they were entirely justified in doing. And they only clashed with Mannimarco's underlings.

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:17 pm

The MG didn't just kill Order of Worm, though, they hunted all necromancers.

The didn't hunt all necromancers. After the order of the worm attacked, the only people they fought were members of the Order of the Worm!

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:58 pm

/\
not true. they arrested that orc lady for being a necromancer and were completely unprovoked. The Mages guild made the first move against The practice of necromancy, and had begun arresting the noble practitioners of it.

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:27 pm

/\
not true. they arrested that orc lady for being a necromancer and were completely unprovoked. The Mages guild made the first move against The practice of necromancy, and had begun arresting the noble practitioners of it.

"Arrest" implies a reason. Given the Knights of the Lamp were sent to arrest her before necromancy was banned, she probably was breaking some guild regulations by practicing necromancy in secret. Perhaps not, but I find it the more probable answer. Certainly more probable than the Guild actively hunting necromancers.

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:29 pm

"Arrest" implies a reason. Given the Knights of the Lamp were sent to arrest her before necromancy was banned, she probably was breaking some guild regulations by practicing necromancy in secret. Perhaps not, but I find it the more probable answer. Certainly more probable than the Guild actively hunting necromancers.

Reading through that right now, the structure and terminology of the book that mentions this seems to suggest otherwise:

CONCLUSION
The risks of studying Necromancy outweigh its usefulness. The Guild does not wish to censor the study of any of its members, but it will not tolerate studies in the Black Arts, except in limited form for the purpose of combating its evil adherents. This may only been done by rare individuals who have proven themselves both highly skilled and highly cautious, and then only with my express permission and supervision.

AFTERWORD
I regret to acknowledge the truth behind the rumor that Master Ulliceta gra-Kogg was more than an apologist for Necromancy, she was a Necromancer herself. Upon this revelation, the Knights of the Lamp attempted to arrest her at the Guildhouse in Orsinium, but she made good her escape. We have every confidence in the replacement Magister in Orsinium.

Though I disagreed, I respected her logical reasoning enough to include her arguments in this book, and I see no reason to remove them. It is disappointing, however, to see that her interest in 'the truth' was nothing more than a euphemism for her slavery to the Black Arts.

This unfortunate situation merely illustrates how essential it is for Guildmembers to be wary of the lure of Necromancy, and be vigilant to its practitioners' infiltration in our Mages Guild.

That they went to full-out arrest her instead of simply asking her to knock that stuff off or requested her to quietly and gracefully step down, and that others in the guild probably received the same exact treatment, could definetily be constructed as a declaration of war by necromancers and the Order of the Worm. Granted, if they'd really wanted to stick it to the guild they should've gone on a gigantic information proliferation spree, but I get the feeling that the Worms were the particularly douchetastic segment of the necromancer populace and would be doing what they did no matter what their calling.

» Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:54 pm

That they went to full-out arrest her instead of simply asking her to knock that stuff off or requested her to quietly and gracefully step down, and that others in the guild probably received the same exact treatment, could definetily be constructed as a declaration of war by necromancers and the Order of the Worm. Granted, if they'd really wanted to stick it to the guild they should've gone on a gigantic information proliferation spree, but I get the feeling that the Worms were the particularly douchetastic segment of the necromancer populace and would be doing what they did no matter what their calling.

That happened in Orsinium, not Cyrodiil. It was a different Mages Guild branch.

» Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:47 am

Which is irrelevent; while the actual scuffle between the Worms and the guild (the scuffle that we know of, anyway, since for all we know similar conflicts were happening all over Tamriel) was locked to the immediete geographical region of Cyrodil as is the rest of the game, the administration's ban on necromancy and the rooting out of anybody associated with it was, as indicated by Black Arts On Trial, a continent-wide effort as opposed to affecting only the specific province of Cyrodil. Considering that the AU is the very core of the guild in present-day Tamriel, any decision made there will affect the operations of the entire guild.