Mannimarco was pretty [censored] up, regardless of his reasons.
Almalexia and Vivec were also evil, self serving, doublecrossing characters.
Jager Tharn seemed to me that he just liked messing peoples lives up not just for power, but for the pure glee of it.
Potema the Wolf Queen was a depraved nutjob.
Mankar Comoran was up there with Hitler.
Orvas Dren, although a lowly noble Hlalauu, would sell out his own brother and profit off of anyone's misfortune if he could. Jerk. That's why I blackmailed and then killed him when he no longer served my purposes in MW. KInda like karmic irony.
You know who else always made me wonder? Divvayth Fyre. You don't live to be that old and not have a few skeletons in the closet.

Divvayth Fyre is a Telvanni, the amoral band of mages in MW. Shouldn't be too hard to imagine what he did during his 1000th birthday.

Don't forget Vuhon! He stole peoples souls for his own gain (Once on Umbriel).

I Imagine that after he made his clone wives, his birthdays were never the same.

I can't decide whether that's a good thing or not. You make one mad, and all four get an attitude! :bolt:

The Morrowind Mages Guild went after necromancers independently, because in Morrowind, by the terms of the Armistice, secular necromancy is a capital crime. It seems reasonable to believe the Orsinium Guild could do the same. It's legal in most of the Empire, but simply practicing necromancy in secret is grounds to investigate the person for graverobbing, murder, and illegally using bodies and spirits. I understand that in theory one can practice necromancy legitimately without breaking any laws, but not only does that seem relatively rare, but nigh impossible to do it in secret without resorting to more subtle and less legitimate means. So I say that the Knights of the Lamp were more likely than not justified in their actions. In the very least Ulliceta gra-Kogg was already in violation of the guild restrictions that were already on necromancy.

Tiber Septim: He built an empire of evil.
Nerevar: He betrayed his friend, Dumac. That evil is returned with evil.
Fast Eddie: He's a yella rat. A gossip and a spy.

I wouldn't label them as "evil". Tiber Septim may have conquered Tamriel, but in the process he reduced warring, promoted trade, protected freedom. Perhaps he was a bit paranoid and unsentimental, but that doesn't make someone "evil". If you want to see what an "evil" empire looks like, go watch the original Star Wars Trilogy. Plus he took Morrowind and Summerset with record low casualties on his side. As for Nerevar, he turned on Dumac because the Chimer believed the Dwemer were up to no good. And Fast Eddie isn't worse than any other Telvanni.

You win.

The text of her particular case, however, doesn't go beyond the mere top-level issue of her being a necromancer: it doesn't say that she was a necromancer and that evidence had been found of her committing grave robbery, not that she was a necromancer who had been tied to the disappearance of several individuals in the city, not that Orsinium had instituted an anti-necromancy policy of their own and that she was in violation of it as the magister of that particular branch, but that she was a necromancer, period. This is what the text notes, and this is what the context of the text as in the in-game events supports, no more, no less.

DUH... :tongue:

Look at Morrowind - I killed the king of Worms in a cave in the Telvanni grasslands ... not surprised he is unhappy in Oblivion - but basically those vamps and necros were warring with each other as much as anyone else - actually everyone appeared to be warring with everyone and themselves ^^ That was why they kept asking me to kill people

The (Balmora) MW Mages guild wanted to send me out to kill necros - with no info as to why they should be killed, but I had no reason to believe it was because Necro was illegal in MW

There is a part of me that feels that the only evil would be in boring the PC ... sometimes the repetetive NPC lines did that

But there is also Dagoth Ur - if the Emperor was correct then Dagoth Ur intended to cover the whole of Nirn with his blight and convert all to worship of him - I feel that was evil because I like pelagic or romantic interludes between running the Ashlands ... a kind of morality

Evil can be a tiny thing - great evil can be that tiny thing on a massive scale and covering an entire world in ash and so choking all other life from it would therefore seem evil to me

So is evil in the deed or in the intent?

It is one thing to support a wounded or scarred being, given their minds and hearths are full of love - another to support a pretty face, though her heart is corrupt. So is a well meaning streetperson more wholesome that a biggoted little rich girl? Very hard to deal with in rl that because as in ES there are always consequences. As I see it therefore a smelly armpit is more wholesome than an attitude that stinks.

Fargoth reflected the 'evil' intent of the player back on him - but he proved very frustrating too = two evils do not a good make ^^ I somehow felt that I did n ot want to get involved with the shady doings of malicious guards so I missed out on Fargoth and his fortune

Besides that it is hard to 'judge' intent here on the forum - some folks revel in what others consider to be evils - is that a good?

I like that larst as an exit line but also wonder if we really have enough depth as yet to 'judge' stuff in ES beyond our own preferences. Not to confuse complication with depth. Even so much of what I have read here has merit and much of it is sophistry - what we could best jusdge I suppose is based on what we decided in-game and so those that admit they killed everyone and everything they could in-game for the sake of doing so might well be considered the most evil characters in-game.

Thanks for this thread - made for some fine reading

It doesn't mention much, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't justified, that all to it was what was said; I certainly didn't hear of any outcry or controversy over it. Sure some of the Mages complained about the ban on necromancy but nothing was ever said of the Mages Guild going after necromancers. And as I recall, they gave Kalthar a second chance, only for him to blow it in something completely unrelated.

Half the council resigned when necromancy was banned? A sign? I'd feel worse if Galerion didn't start the war.

Necromancers. Any five of them. Because necromancy is bad and evil, and we should get rid of all necromancers, because they are all bad and evil.

It's not like anyone actually foresaw Mannimarco showing up and organizing the worst the Mages Guild had to offer in order to capture the Arch-Mage's soul. I can understand why many mages were upset by Traven's actions, it's not like they would have known the level of depravity that necromancers were capable of. Nor could Traven be expected to know that Mannimarco would rally the angry necromancers against the Mages Guild. But Mannimarco's actions, and the actions of his underlings, only validated Traven's stance against necromancy.

@Master Thief: /sigh

@Crimson Paladin: I bet a lot of people would've avoided stayed out if necromancy weren't banned, it was more of a reaction.

A necromancer! Kill it!

If you (not Kalarn specifically) couldn't tell, I was making a joke of a satirical nature. I do not find necromancers to be evil in the least. In fact, I am sure that some of them are truly nice people.

On-topic, I don't really think of any mortal as evil; I generally leave that to the Daedric Gods.

Thief, I know I love satire. Daedric Lords aren't really evil, either to be fair.

Well...Molag Bal is quite evil.

That is who I was thinking of. That guy is certainly messed up.

he is merely an idea.
is he still evil if a [censored] baby turns out to be Gandhi?

Yes.

Fair enough, but I wouldn't say all the daedric lords are evil.

I do tend to be slow to pick up on sarcasm, but I did pick up on yours.

Sure there are some nice necromancers, but they're quite rare, if you're not including the ancestor worshipers in Morrowind.

What I find interesting is that The Black Arts on Trials seems to suggest that necromancy may have a corrupting effect, like the Dark Side of the Force. I suppose it all goes down to correlation-causation, both of which can be supported by certain pieces of evidence in TES III and TES IV. It might have something to do with the reason that one takes up summoning and binding the dead; for most Morrowind natives it's out of duty and devotion, and a part of their culture to be summoned post-mortem by one's descendents. Similarly, Telvanni are already pretty nasty when they take up necromancy. But in Cyrodiil, it's considered a corrupting art that requires one to "cross the line". And even a seemingly harmless eccentric old man can be turned into a depraved monster by the lure of necromancy.

Edit: In fact, it seems this potential for corruption is what convinced Traven to ban necromancy in the first place. And from the look of it, it was justified. The ban may have upset some guildmembers, but that doesn't justify murdering their former guildmates, and from what I've seen, it seems like they reveled in cruelty and depravity.