I was wondering, who do you consider the 5 most evil mortals in Tamrielic History? The reason for this is that I find it rather hard to distinguish between evil and good in much of the Elder Scrolls universe. The only really 'evil' people I can think of are Jagar Tharn and Mankar Camoran.

Every villain in TES is built to be grey, with the exception of Jaggar Tharn. Even Mankar Camoran has some claim to the throne (kinda. his dad was king of valenwood and conquered much of tamriel.) and, if his speech in paradise is even half true then the CoC is more evil (from a human, not merish view.)

I think Mannimarco would also count as an exception.

I thought Mannimarco was somekind of god or is me that got it wrong???

but agree Mannimarco is one mean :swear:

Ignore the OB Mannimarco. The one in Daggerfall wasn't particularly evil, he just had a beef with Arkay and wanted to settle the score.

I agree, the Mannimarco in Oblivion is NOT, I repeat NOT, the same guy as the King of Worms. Atleast not in my mind.
The King of Worms was one helluva cool guy... Sure, most believe Necromancers to be evil people who animate dead bodies and skeletons into their own armies that they will use to burn and destroy villages but that is a very naive point of view.
Most Necromancers stay in their caves, researching, philosophing and discussing. Their undead guardians are just there to get people to leave them in peace since they are more like scholars than warriors. Ofcourse, now and then a stupid dimvitted adventurer has to stomp in and slaughter everyone, claiming to be a "great hero".
The King of Worms helps them in their endevours for a small price, they have to serve him and their undead shall help him when it is needed.

So no, Necromancers and the King of Worms are not evil, atleast not more evil than much other folks around. Orvas Dren is atleast someone I regard as evil, mafia bosses are not my personal favorites...

I don't remember DF Mannimarco ever helping me with his undead. Every time I visited him I had to slaughter the horde of undead he had, and one time he had a zombie attack me in order to send a letter. Hell, I'm pretty sure my only work with him was helping get some lich's soul and helping along some political machinations by delivering a letter.

edit1: DF Mannimarco had, if anything, the utmost disregard for the safety of the player character.

so what you are saying is that the King of Worms isnt evil, but i guess you are right. Burning down a guild hall and killing everyone inside of it, :facepalm:"THAT IS NOT EVIL" :facepalm:

But i agree with you that not all Necromancers are evil

Its no more evil than killing anyone who dares do medicine on a dead body.

Even Tharn had his reasons, I'm sure.

Had he succeeded, killing a few Bruma mages would have been only the tip of the iceberg. And if the dialogue of his lieutenants suggests anything, he was also very sadistic.

I mean sure he did rally a bunch of ostracized necromancers to his cause and give them a purpose, but his dialogue at the end of the OB Campaign suggests he was doing it for himself. For power.

‘Most’ evil is hard to say. But, in addition to Tharn and (maybe) Mannimarco, here are a few other names for consideration:

Marukh the Seer - He wrote the Alessian Doctrines, founded the Alessian order, and is credited with the phrase “All are guilty until they have proven themselves innocent.” His actions led directly to the War of Righteousness which was responsible for the death of half the population of the Iliac Bay. An off-shoot of the Alessian Order called the Marukhati Selective were responsible for the so-called Dragon Break.

Potema, Wolf Queen of Solitude – Her political machinations led King Orgnum of Pyandonea to attack and nearly conquer the Summerset Isles. Later, she overthrew her own niece, Kintyra II, to secure the throne for her son. This act led to the War of the Red Diamond, a civil war that resulted in the dissolution of the Knights of the Nine.

Uriel Mantiarco (Uriel Septim III) – He was the son of Queen Potema. He overthrew his cousin and imprisoned her for nine years before she finally died (Or he killed her, depending on the source). He was so beloved by the people that, en route to his trial in the Imperial City, a mob overtook his carriage and burned him alive within it!

King Joile of Daggerfall – In 1E 948 King Joile of Daggerfall wrote a letter to Gaiden Shinji of the Order of Diagna in Hammerfall. In this letter, Joile asks for Shinji’s aid in protecting Wayresters from Orcs ‘plaguing their way into the interior of the land.’ Shinji agrees to the alliance. What followed was a thirty year siege of Orsinium which eventually cost Shinji his life. Even before Orsinium fell Joile betrayed his alliance and launched an attack on Hammerfell through the Bankorai Pass. The pass was held by six brave Ansei (including Makela Leki) who fell during the attack, but not before slaying the treacherous King Joile.

Thanks, specific names are what I was looking for.

Also, you say that Uriel Septim III was so beloved by the people that they burned him alive in his carriage?!

Damn Destri Melarg,
we discusst whether Mannimarco was evil or not and then you pull that one out of your sleeve, GOOD ONE. :goodjob:

Well, he couldnt trust you, but you still knew your way around with nobles, peasants and other. You were maybe still the Emperors puppet, or serving the Underking, or helping the Mages Guild or a local lord somewhere. And that zombie was a warning and a test, if you survived then you′re not completely useless and you know that he can get you anywhere, anytime, anyhow.



Oh seriously... Read the first sentence! Mannimarco and the KoW are not the same person, they even got different personalities, looks and styles! Mannimarco is that "bad guy" Altmer in Oblivion who lives in a dirty cave. The King of Worms is that badass, grey-motivated character in Daggerfall living in some old stone dungeon/fortress with his own servants, women and such stuff (I think).

Mannimarco is just a sociopath. There really is no justification for making me risk my life just to have a chat. And by the way, if that zombie was a test, then what was killing half the things in his lair just to deliver a letter? A warm-up? That zombie was jackassery. He already knew I could kill his undead minions.

But they are the same person whether you like it or not, just because he svckS in Oblivion he is still the same as the one in Daggerfall. and he will be until we get told otherwise, (i havent played Daggerfall but i was also kind of disapointed after i fought him in OB).

I personally think they are the same person, post-Dragon Break. Or, more precisely, the Mannimarco in Oblivion is an avatar of the King of Worms. I know that it's been said that the Jills extracted him following the Dragon Break, but given the Necromancer's Moon (which to be fair wasn't very well known) and the fact that both Mannimarco and his underlings mention him having ascended post-Dragon Break, I think I have the right to be skeptical.

I always thought Haymon Cameron (the Cameron Usurper) was a pretty unsympathetic villain. He carved a path of destruction up through southern Hammerfell pretty much because he could (and because no one recognized him).

Maybe it was easier for a zombie to find you than a human, maybe it could travel faster, maybe he wanted it to die and could let you do it, maybe he cant control his zombies very good when they are that far from him. Lots of explanations.



Its easy to retcon lore and actually we still have just as much facts about him NOT being the KoW (style, looks, base, overall svckiness) as him BEING the KoW (Guys saying he is the KoW, himself saying he is the KoW, books saying he is the KoW). Unless they make him a worthy adversary who isnt just a stupid [censored] Altmer I will refuse believing that Mannimarco is the KoW.

Your just making excuses. Mannimarco is a sociopath, pure and simple. I'd say that Mannimarco in DF and Mannimarco in OB are the exact same person, and that Mannimarco in OB had his sociopathic tendencies worsened by time.

Mannimarco is as evil as you or I. To be perfectly honest, I find Oblivion's Mannimarco to be a hero. Now why would I say something like that? I find Mannimarco to be a very unique lich. He's not benevolent or malevolent. I find him to be very true neutral. He does what benefits him. What happened at Bruma was a power-play to alert the Mages' Guild, "If you continue with your witch-hunt on the necromancers, this'll be the first of many."

The King of Worms merely defended himself and his followers. Imagine if you were a leader of a union of we'll say, biochemists. Now lets imagine that some organization said, "Any biochemists with us ar ebanned." You'd be like, whatever. But when they start hunting your employees down, then what? You have to get them to stop.

Same thing. Mannimarco was a hero in Oblivion, because he defended the people being 'illegally murdered' by the Mages' Guild. You can ban the practice in your organization, but you can't ILLEGALLY HUNT DOWN AND KILL THE PRACTICIONERS OF THE CRAFT! In Oblivion, the Mages' Guild were the bad guys, not visa-versa...

I'm sorry but given what I've read, seen, and heard from Mannimarco, he's not True Neutral in any stretch. He's power hungry, manipulative, and has no moral qualms about killing those in his way and turning them into his thralls. Yes he did unite a bunch of out-of-work necromancers but I'm fairly certain he did it all for personal gain.

The Mages Guild was not hunting necromancers, they simply refused to associate with them. Only after the Order of the Worm attacked the Mages Guild at least three times unprovoked, killing many innocent mages, did the Mages Guild retaliate.

The fighters guild killed off competition instead of, you know, become more competent or changing how they do business. How is that good and not evil?

Unprovoked? What about Bernerius in Anvil? Also, his followers were kicked out of the guild by a moron. I'd be a little ticked too, but when they started getting hunted down. Also, Mannimarco had no problems with the MG, until they started it. He merely wanted Arkay.

That was done unofficially without Guild sanction, and only after it was clear that something fishy was going on.


As I recall, the penalty for graverobbing is death. Not to mention he http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Scrap_from_Lorgren%27s_Diary. And as I said before, only those who refused to stop dabbling in necromancy would actually be kicked out, and until the Order of the Worm attacked the Mages Guild, the only action they took against necromancers were their own members who were breaking the Guild's rules.

As for Mannimarco's actions against the Mages Guild, it seems he was after one thing; Arch-Mage Traven. If he is to be believed, he had a habit of capturing the souls of Arch-Mages and capturing their souls. I suspect he used the Guild's necromancy ban as an opportunity to gather the needed manpower to do the same to Traven.