Was it not already said that we are taking it as 'everything was done?'




But, I think Velorien put it best. Anyone who doesn't vote Oblivion is just kidding themselves. Becoming a Daedric Prince? That is pretty impressive.


But I bet most people who voted Morrowind are just OB bashers.

Lord (or Lady!) Indoril Nerevar. United the houses, united the tribes, threw down the triumvirate, gained the favor of many Daedric princes, slayer of Dagoth Ur, and defeated an aspect of Hircine to top it all off. Sorry, the CoC's resume just doesn't hold up to it imo.

Hmm... Threw down many Oblivion Gates, United all of the cities, saved the last heir to the throne, gained the favor of ALL Daedric princes. KILLED a Daedric Prince, BECAME a Daedric Prince.

Stole one of the most powerful documents in the world. Defeated a Ayleid Immortal Sorcerer.

Eh, considering the caretakers of the Elder Scrolls are blind I wouldn't tout the stealing of the scroll as an accomplishment. I'm shocked it doesn't happen more often. It's one of the easiest quests I did in OB and I don't play stealthy characters in TES.

I forgot Nerevar acquired the Daedric Crescent from Lord Dregas Volar as well.

I don't remember the count in OB so I'll honestly ask how many Daedric Princes personally thanked the CoC by manifesting in front of them and presenting them with gifts? I know the CoC becomes Sheogorath but so did another mortal. Azura did at least once for Nerevar, she appears as a Dunmer on the steps of Almalexia's temple, again my memory is fuzzy here. She is Nerevar's patron though so I took it more as a "job well done" type of thing than anything else.

I'll also admit to having never finished Arena or Daggerfall and that's why I'm not going to argue for the heroes of those games.

That was really more of a "Thanks for being my unknowing pawn" than anything else; basically the same thing as giving a dog a treat for doing the trick you told it to do.

Whoa now, no one killed a Daedric Prince. That's not even possible. The CoC defeated an avatar of Jyggalag, same as the Nerevarine defeated an avatar (or aspect) of Hircine. Hence why Jyggalag speaks to the player after the fight.


"Unknowing" is a strange word to use for someone who walked up to a shrine and typically offered a gift, sometimes during a specific time of day, as a request to be given a task and a reward. Hardly an unknowing pawn or a dog doing a trick. A soldier volunteering for the army and receiving a medal would be a better metaphor.

No we are talking about different quests lol. I'm assuming krymzon was talking about the ending of the main quest instead of her shrine quest. When she appears and gives the player her ring as a reward for deactivating the heart, therefore causing dagoth and the tribunal to lose the rest of the power they were all leeching from the heart.

Same here. I believe Haskill is actually Sheogorath in disguise, and he's just playing the CoC like a violin.



Those two points are debatable. I stated my opinion about your latter point above. As for the former, if you were Jyggalag, and you finally saw an opportunity to break your curse, would you really be trying all that hard to kill the person that's the key to your freedom?

Yup, that's exactly what I was referring to, I mentioned where she appeared and that I took it as a reward for "finishing the quest" with Almalexia. I don't see Nerevar as a pawn in Azura's game though, more a willing participant. Revenge of the fallen type of stuff. It wasn't a quest but I killed Vivec as well because I think they were all equally as guilty as Dagoth Ur.

Fat lot of good it did. The houses were pretty much all "yeah, yeah, okay, whatever," and fell back into infighting not long after the events of Morrowind.


With the help of Azura and Vivec themselves. Both Vivec and Sotha Sil knew their time was up and let it happen. Almalexia only opposed it when she went insane after the fact.


The CoC gained favor of more Daedric princes, and was given more note-worthy tasks (travelling to a Daedric realm for a tournament, travelling to a Daedric realm to free trapped souls, slaying Umbra to get Umbra, slaying a unicorn and ostensibly eating it and drinking its blood, starting a war between two families...).


Note that you did not kill Dagoth Ur. You killed his body, twice, but he was still alive as a god and could come back again. In fact, you didn't kill Vivec either, for the same reason (if the Trial of Vivec is to be considered canon). The only one you killed was Almalexia after she lost her power.


The CoC defeated a Daedric Prince full on, in his own realm.

Oh, whoops, I see what he meant now. I thought he was saying that as something in favor of the CoC, but I see what he meant now. Yeah, Azura was just using the Nerevarine.

Source?

Deduction. You kill him before entering the main chamber, and he shows up again in the chamber, and you kill him again in there. What makes you think the second time was any more permanent than the first? As he says, you cannot kill a god, and he is a god. I'm pretty sure Vivec says that they still have some of their power, even after the heart is disenchanted.

If he was actually killed, however, it wasn't until after he lost his power and was no longer a god... when he not much more than a regular mortal.

He was killed after the Heart was disenchanted. I'm not sure why you'd consider Almalexia to be dead but not Dagoth Ur. He had the same circumstances as she did.

He may have had power, but he was mortal as soon as he lost his connection to the heart. I was confused because you made it sound like he had CHIM by comparing him to Vivec in the Trial.

Yeah, pretty sure you were the one I got the theory from in the first place

... Think I'll visit the Lore section about this...



Puh-lease.

The fact that there was still a realm after Jyggalag was "defeated" proves that he wasn't killed. He IS the realm. The avatar is just there to interact with Mortals. It's as much the Prince as a Golden Saint or a Knight of Order.

Also, a god cannot be killed, at all. In a similar manner to the discussions about the Tribunal above, Sheogorath is immortal. He couldn't even be killed by 15 other Princes. The best they could do is curse him. I refuse to believe that any mortal, even a hero predicted by the Elder Scrolls, could possibly ever outmatch the power of 15 gods.


It actually wouldn't surprise me if he somehow survived. It's not all black and white like that, in TES.

Right, which is why I said defeated, not killed. The CoC defeated Jyggy and stopped the Greymarch.


Same reason I don't consider Vivec to be dead, despite the player having the option of killing him after the heart is disenchanted (he didn't achieve CHIM until the trial, after all). After the MQ, he says he still has some power. To me it seems that it wasn't until during Tribunal that their powers had weakened enough that they could be killed, and at that point, killing Vivec became a gameplay thing since the expansion wasn't focused on him. I suppose you could put any post-heart death of his, even without the expansions, down to gameplay... but it's more fun to think it took time for the heart's power to completely fade, meaning Dagoth Ur didn't die at your hands.

We don't know when Vivec achieved CHIM. Also, Dagoth Ur surviving harms Morrowind's narrative and plot and is BATW. It essentially tells the player they were useless.

And you said so yourself, killing Vivec is gameplay. Meaning that either you didn't kill Vivec (and it just a game play mechanic), or you killed his avatar and he survived because of CHIM, or the Trial isn't canon.

Well Hircine, the realm didn't dissipate because of the CoC. He took over the role as a Daedric Prince


Jygallag is the Realm, the Realm is Jygallag.

Well, Jygallag was Sheogorath, and while he was Sheogorath the realm existed, he was 2 beings.


Now they are 2 seperate beings. Jygallag and Sheogorath were 2 seperate beings. Sheogorath being the CoC. Both were Daedric Princes.

I agree with the point about Vivec, but I don't see what that has to do with Dagoth Ur. You agree that Almalexia is dead, but Dagoth Ur did die, whether it was being slain by the player after the Heart was disenchanted, or by falling with the bridge down into the lava. Sure, Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal still have some degree of power, but that explains why they're still some of the strongest NPCs in the game. Their godhood is gone though.

Dagoth Ur could be retconned to return, I suppose, but as of right now, he's dead as dead.

A mortal can sustain a plane of existence? He can match the power of an immortal god? No...

Right now, the staff and Tree of Madness allows him to sustain himself.


Also, have you read Lady Nerevar's http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1096021-arden-sul/

Don't be silly, where are they getting the power from, if the Prince has been kicked out?




:shrug:

Who, Sheogorath or Jyggalag? When Sheo "left", Jyg did not gain 100% control over everything. When Jyg and CoC fought, both had control over the realm (it was not completely Jyg's yet). Also, as Lady N's theory states, it is possible they are still the same.




If it wasn't the CoC, it was a different person who stopped the Graymarch.

Not in my opinion. I mean, think about it, who is the one person in the entirety of the Shivering Isles that you can even touch, let alone kill. Not Jyggalag. Not Sheogorath. Haskill. The seemingly normal chamberlein of Sheogorath, one of the only 'normal' beings in the isles. Seemingly the only person to maintain knowledge about the Isles from the beginning besides Dyus. Speaking of Dyus, wouldn't his curse have been lifted if the true Sheogorath had turned into Jyggalag? But no, it wasn't. He was still being held there by something. It clearly wasn't the former 'Sheogorath', as he was gone by that point. It wasn't the CoC, as he had not yet mantled Sheogorath. Who was the only person to seemingly know about Dyus? Haskill. It all points to Haskill being much more than he originally appears.