Of course not, yet you use the word Mortal.


The CoC isn't a mortal, he is a Daedric Prince. The lore says so, the game says so.


You can't just shove your own opinion into the Lore because you think what REALLY happened in canon-breaking.

Alright, so lets say Sheogorath is Haskill. What happened to him during the Greymarch? Nothing.

He isn't a deity. He is little more than a permanent summoning, purely based for servitude.


Dyus, how do you know he doesn't choose to stay in the only place he has to call home? Its purely circumstantial.
We don't know whether or not he could leave. He never tried, why did he not try? Whos to say but him. Yet he says nothing.


Stop imputting your logic and reasoning as fact.

SHEOGORATH says so. There's a major difference. Whenever Sheogorath is involved, it's never black and white.


Also: Imputting logic and reasonging is a bad thing? It makes perfect sense for Haskill to be Sheogorath. PERFECT. In Sheogorath's strange non sensical way, anyway.

1. The shivering isles are not Jyggalag's realm. They are Sheogorath's. Had jygallag succeeded in crystalizing the font and tree of madness it would have been his realm. He did not succeed, it remains Sheo's realm. Those were the big symbols of the realm, symbols are important. They still remained under Sheo's control.

2. The only thing that supports the greymarch is the realm itself. Given it's sheo you're dealing with, there's no gaurantee the greymarch was an actual threat.

3. None of these protagonists could hope to be as awesome as the Battlespire Initiate. Dude fights an entire army of daedra himself and casts Dagon back into oblivion. Even convincing some daedra to side with him.

The Heretics also say so. They are heretics because they believe Sheogorath was once a mortal. A mortal just like the player. Arden Sul did pretty much exactly what the player did, for example.


Perfect nonsense? I don't see why the Haskill-is-Sheogorath theory has taken off at all. I mean, Haskill is Sheogorath in the same way that the Golden Saints and the Dark Seducers are Sheogorath, but he's not the avatar of Sheogorath like the one we see sitting on the throne. I also don't see any points to that theory outside of "Sheogorath likes to mess with people" which isn't enough with no evidence.

I don't see the relevance?

All I can see is that it supports my claims. Why would Jyggalag start life as a mortal?


Yep. That's what Sheo's all about



I think you misunderstand. The Sheogorath we see is merely a standard Daedra that thinks he's a god. Or perhaps another adventurer that "mantled" him, ala the CoC. Haskill is the actual avatar of Sheogorath.

All Daedra, I believe, are given thier own mind. They can do as they wish, have thier own personalities, and can even disobey, but are brainwashed by thier Prince.


Well I don't see why that isn't enough evidence, since that's all he is about. Look at it this way.

• Haskill is the one to give you the initial test of fighting the Gatekeeper, by sending you to Shegorath.
  
• Haskill is the one to greet you initially.
  
• Haskill is the only one who seems to be able to traverse the realm as he pleases.
  
• Haskill speaks to you through the shrine. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure only a god can talk to someone through thier shrine. We'll ignore the initial voice of the shrine, as it was an edit, but I see no problem as to why a god would struggle to copy the accent of Sheogorath.

And then there's all the inconsistencies we've been over, such as the fact that the realm still stands.

Just to make it easier - when I refer to "Sheogorath", I mean the scottish guy in the throne room. I still believe Haskiil would make a perfect Sheogorath.

EDIT: Oh damn, I just realised this is a thread about the protagonists, lol. I'll go start a new thread... >_>


'Nother EDIT: Here: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1189081-sheogorath/

That leads me to a crazy theory, my knew personal opinion of the isles of madness, its a big blend of you theory, Lady Nerevars theory, and the Shivering isles...

Haskil was (as you claim) Sheogorath, Dyus however, was the true Jyggalag, Arden Sul was the "Fake" Sheogorath, who also turns into a "Fake" Jyggalag.

Lets say the entire realm was one big Daedra, (Jyggalag), he was however cursed by the other Daedra to also (at the same time) become Sheogorath, and were there was once one avatar there are now two, however since they are the same being (in my opinion the entire isles are the true Daedra) they can however not actually hurt each other, they cannot lead armies up against each other, for that would be leading armies upon thine self, however (misinformed and tricked) mortals dressed as gods can, Haskill and Dyus also don't dirrectly hate eachother, instead they simply wish to be one. [I expect at that time the realm was equily shared with Mania being the mad part and dementia order (could also be opposite)] Arden Sul came into the world in perfect time to side with both order and madness, by dual-sacrificing himself to both gods [to the realm itself] he became the "Fake" avatar, both real avatars needed, however as a mortal he could not be two at the same time so he was sheogorath during most of the time (pure coincidence), and jyggalag the greymarch, however neither avatar could leave the realm 'nor could they actually be harmed, so during the ages the "Fake" madgod thought he had put Dyus in his palace, the only chamber of order left. Later the CoC came in and was told something the other mortal who came to rule had believed... in the end the new champion of order and madness, slayed the former... then took his place as a "Fake avatar of Sheogorath/Haskill, destined to soon change into Jyggalag, perhaps this time its the orderly elements of The Shivering Isles (The True Daedric Prince) that takes control and leaves Haskill as a fragile man inside a chamber.

I voted for Nerevarine because the question is "Who is the most impressive protagonist?" and Nerevarine impressed me the most.
I simply felt more powerful and important and imposing and, well, impressive when playing as Nerevarine than as any other.

His accomplishments may or may not be objectively greater than the CoC's, but it's a subjective question. I was more impressed with him as a Hero than I was with the CoC.

I see the Champion Of Cyrodiil as the most impressive. Becoming a Daedric Prince and all.

I really think people underestimate the skill of the Arena protagonist, the Eternal Champion:

Considering they were on a journey for ten years across all of the provinces, and plunged into some of the most dangerous and forgotten dungeons throughout the whole of Tamriel. Personally it must have taken some serious willpower to have remained so determined: you have to wonder, ten years, if there was ever the slightest sliver of doubt in them - that the true Emperor could have already been long dead, and their journey was for nothing. And for those ten years, they only had the spirit of Ria Silmane to confide in. Nobody else (that we know of) knew that the Emperor on the throne was an impostor. They had no entourage of friends, like we had in Morrowind and Oblivion.

Not only this, but they had no prophecy or divine aid at their side (aside from some artifacts). If each of the protagonists were around today, I would easily venture to say that the Eternal Champion is the most wizened and skilled of them all. That's as far as in-character development is concerned, though. Which one is literally the most powerful? The Nerevarine, IMHO: but I'm still going to vote for Arena. Easily the most well-rounded character, I'd say.

This alone made me take my vote from Morrowind....to Oblivion.

I forget about the begining...you're litterally handed instructions from the start. Morrowind felt more hard because you battled Gods..but dude...you had all the tools told to get. o_o' And the whole "Dodge/Miss" thing was gone from Oblivion...so people pick Morrowind due to ingame mechanics. I.E. "Because you have a 0 in your Spears, you might stick the rat in the eye, but he dodged" lol

Mounrhold/Tribunal was craft a Blade that could Take down Almalexia...you did some detective work...but it came down you had a Blade crafted NOT By you, but by some one else...
Vivec on the other hand...He was tough...But if you decided not to kill him...(Which you never were told to do lol) you could come back and wreck him in a matter of moments.
Dagoth was a TOUGH boss fight...I thought his fight was insane..but again, it's Game Mechanics not lore.

I voted for Morrowind due to thinking on the Path of Actually DEFEATING Demi/Full-Gods...Thank you Vicarious Zombie.

Morrowind = Hand given everything...to an extent.
Oblivion = Go do it your way, and get it done!

Other thing I think Oblivion beats out on is, Head Mage of the Magest Guild Morrowind vs Head Mage of the Mages Guild Oblivion...

I think Oblivion has a tougher story/more drawn out...even though I one shot pretty much everyone in cloth as a Bow User. LOL

I actually felt Oblivion was more of a "guided" game than Morrowind. You were only given good equipment late in the main quest, you actually had to walk and look for things, and pretty much everyone hated you until you defeated Dagoth Ur. They called the Nerevarine an outlander and a heretic throughout the entire game, but the CoC was praised by people once he became the Hero of Kvatch. The Nerevarine was told where to go and who to see, but didn't the Emperor tell you to find Jauffre, and then Baurus tell you that Jauffre is at Weynon Priory? I don't see a difference.

That's how I always imagined the Eternal Champion, even though I never played Arena. Wise and skilled.

I'm going to some what clear up what I was talking about above:
You're looking at Game Mechanics, Again, it is why I said, why I think alot of people think Morrowind = Harder/More Pressure. But It's the LORE of things we're getting at.

The STORY is:
Oblivion:
You are in a Jail Cell, You get mixed up with the KING and His Body guards from being Killed by his offenders. He is Killed, and You are told to go Find Jauffre, but when you leave the Jail Cell after fighting Rats and crabs etc...what are you doing? Standing outside of a Sewer with a Amulet in your hand thinking..."What THE F---- JUST HAPPENED?!? What do I do? What am I in now?"<---After you got done battling out of the blue from sleeping in your jail cell to hand to hand combat, to getting out of the sewers, and got thrown into a KINGS plot to be killed. Wrong Place...Wrong Time. You're character had to over come...Conan the Barbarian like Feats with nothing but your Clothes and what ever weapon was handed to you by the body guards, THEN dealing with the sewer and the path of finding ok transportation through the wilderness to find this Jauffre, and trust that you need to be helping at all..or think "Rich man...pfft...have fun in your death, I'm pawning this [censored]!" lol

Morrowind:
You awaken an amnesiac, You are told you need papers to make sure people have proof of who you are. And...Then you are told, If you want to earn money/get some where, Go to this town, and finish up your papers and drop this package off. But you are put in the middle of a City...with a Travel Station over there to use the money and drop off a package.

I.e. You are literally Safe...inside a town. Oblivion...you are ditched out of a Sewer and Told to help after The town guard had you locked up. (Did they ever Explain why you were in the Jail to begin with? I think I missed it if they did LOL).

1) It's Emperor Uriel Septim VII, not King.
2) You are still told where to go and what to do. And in Oblivion, you may be in a sewer, but you're very close to the largest city in the game, and the capital of Cyrodiil no less. In Morrowind, your map didn't show you any roads at all; you had to rely on people's directions, sign posts, or travelling systems like silt striders and ships.
3) Conan the Barbarian feats with nothing but your clothes? Please. I don't know if you remember, but you get armor in the sewers. In Morrowind, you start out with 87 gold which is just barely enough to get you cheap armor and a weapon.
4) I talked about game mechanics once, and that was about actually having to find locations in Morrowind instead of having their location handed to you on a silver platter like in Oblivion.

Oblivion throws you as much into the main quest as Morrowind does, perhaps even moreso. At the beginning of Morrowind, you have no idea what's going to happen, only that you need to deliver a package. In Oblivion, you have a much higher sense of urgency; the Emperor is dead and you have to deliver his amulet to the Grandmaster of the Blades. Either way, you don't even have to start it right away.

Become an immortal being trumps all.

1. Sorry...same thing to me. lol King/Emperor = Same title...
2. You're thinking Game Mechanics...again...You're very close to a City you cannot go back to (Game Mechanics you can, lol), but the Main Character Isn't "Supposed to". It's not Safe...-sigh- You can Loot/Pillage The Sewer, but you're not handed Armor....AGAIN...GAME...Never mind...you're still talking about Mechanics, I don't think you're getting the point of what Me and Zombie are trying to get across...
3. Told to go Give this Amulet to a Monk at a Monestary out in the boonies. On Foot. (Game Mechanics put aside). And yes, you get A Weapon, I don't remember getting a stick of armor. It was mostly Heres an Item the Guard Dropped; PROTECT THE EMPEROR! INCOMING!
4. I'm talking about NON-Game Mechanics. And no...You find him at the Weynon Priory, a place you don't know about, Wilderness + Bandits + Roads you don't know who is coming after you for the Amulet. Morrowind is: take the Silt Strider To Balmora and give this package to some one. lol

--Snippet of last paragraph---
Game Mechanics...we're talking story here.
Story is:
You = Jail Cell, Go with the "Emperor" and his Body Guards to get Jumped in a Sewer/Passage Way you don't know about, Dark...Damp...Creatures who give disease etc, Plus a Band of Homocidal Maniacs running around with Conjured Armor are attacking you, and you get a Sword from a Downed Guard <----THATS CONAN Spot on! BY CROM!
..Compared to:
You wake up on a Ship from a Bad Dream you don't know about/feels weird/awkward and wind up in a City and told "You can go here..there is a Silt Strider that can take you to other cities if you like..." type situation.

Yes you're told what to do...DUH its part of the Game...but story wise/THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX FOR A MOMENT...For the Main Character to do something like Oblivion...is down right NUTS. Morrowind is by far the harder GAME, but Feats of Strength from a NON-God (Morrowind You = The Neravine...which...means you're destined for greatness lol).

In The World of Oblivion, The Main Character Is...mostly Human. Not Even Destined to be a God/Demi God/Daedric Prince, but you can become one, Mostly the Story is about Martin. YOU are just an Errand boy on an Epic Quest to stop the Oblivion Gates...Which means...you're mortal like no other. Morrowind = You're a God (Demi God...what ever, Daedric God), but because of some predicaments, you're at a loss on power and need to "Regain" it all.

Morrowind is a Pretty awesome Protaganist, but Oblivion has the More...Impressive Build up, STORY Wise...not Game Mechanic wise. lol

Like I said: Mages guild you take on Mannimarco (Spell check), a Fuggen Master of Necromancer, who is about to become immortal through powerful magics (Even though thanks to Game Mechanics, Minn/mannimarco is a push over lol)...Mages Guild on Morrowind is...pretty lol for a GOD.

Olath D'nilok. What I think DearBrother is trying to say is that we aren't at all looking at the gameplay.


We are speaking lore here. Not which game was harder. Sure, Oblivion held your hand in terms of gameplay. I'm willing to accept that, but the character Lore-Wise is what we are talking about.


Did you pay no attention to the list? Why would I list such things if I was talking about how hard the game was, or how hard it was to do said things in the game.

Exactly., "Well Morrowind Had to go through Fighting Dagoth UR! That was ten times more impressive then Oblivions NON-Boss fights!"<---Thats what I based my first vote on, before I yanked it back to vote Oblivion. Because I was taking the Game Mechanics of Morrowind's Harder/More Difficult style not the Actual Lore...which If Oblivion was put in on Morrowind's Style..I bet alot of people would have RAGE Quit half way through the First Wave of Demons when you closed the first Oblivion Gate outside of Kvatch lol

Assuming every quest line possible for a single character is carried out to 100% completion, I would have voted Oblivion...

But...
In Morrowind, a stranger in a foreign land becomes a key part of the history of that land.
As head of as many guilds as he could manage, he is guaranteed to be incredibly skilled in multiple disciplines.
He is a skilled cartographer, single handedly discovering and adding hundreds of locations to his map.
He discovers dozens of people in the wilderness and helps them solve their problems.
He revolutionizes the religious system of the land, unmasking not three, but FOUR false 'gods' and causing them to become mortal, what's more, the people accept him when he does this.
He gets to know people and talks to them and uses them to gain the information he needs to complete his goals.
He could have failed and joined others in their failure, including himself.
He is fearsomely skilled in combat.

In Oblivion, a prisoner in a land, which in all likelihood is not foreign, becomes a key part of the history of the world.
As head of as many guilds he could manage, he proves himself not necessarily to be particularly skilled at anything except trickery and subterfuge.
He never needs to get better at anything he does, because he is already the best.
He always knows where he is going and what to do, with a unique ability to understand the most useless instructions, suggestions and other dialog from other characters.
He is not necessarily skilled in combat, just adequate.
He is manipulated to steal an elder scroll for another person's selfish means.
He is manipulated to avert the Oblivion crisis because the rest of the world can't be bothered. Those few that can be bothered are inadequately skilled or prepared.
He is manipulated into annihilating the Dark Brotherhood.
He could not have failed and joined others in their failure, because outside the thieves guild there is no evidence anywhere that anyone is competing with him.
He is the first person who isn't incompetent to march into Oblivion and the Shivering Isles
He is always in the right place at the right time.
He kills a Daedric Prince, and becomes a new Daedric prince who never existed. He is not able to use his powers in Tamriel during the Oblivion Crisis, indicating that in fact, he is not daedra. Therefore he is manipulated into thinking that he is a daedric prince while in fact, being a daedric prince in name only.
He is manipulated by the Emperor into doing all the hard work so that the Emperor can swoop in and steal his kill.

oh and did I mention that in Oblivion, the prisoner's every deed can not truely be called his own because with very few exceptions, he never has to figure a problem about by himself (where the human player is the consciousness of the prisoner), but instead is lead through all his achievements by a supernatural force?

On the other hand, the prisoner in Oblivion has an impressive skill at knowing where locations are that he hasn't been given directions to and what is lying over the next hill.

Ignorance: Lack of knowledge or information


It has been stated THREE TIMES now. That we are assuming the Character did everything possible in the game.
Do you simply ignore these? Or cannot be bothered to actually read what you are voting for?
Sheesh dude.



FURTHERMORE, you constantly use the word manipulate. He was not manipulated, he volunteered to do these things. It was his choice. And then you talk about him never having to figure out a problem for himself? Stop talking gameplay. We have covered that also, this is in terms of lore. If you wanna talk gameplay go somewhere else.

Actually...Neravine isn't a Stranger, He is Amnesiac. lol He is from these lands. Vivec says so himself. You are the Neravine Incarnate.
The one thing I give The Neravine...but it kills it because he is a "God"<---or at one point WAS a God...He Had the Ability to Or HAS become a Vampire AND A werewolf ONCE in his lifetime. <-------THAT is pretty [censored] impressive. Not only had he become one and the other, he Tested the CURE For Both. Which is probably how the Witch Lady in Oblivion helped Your Protagonist find it in HIS area aswell.

The thing is...Neravine has powers just not...Godlike/Daedric Powers. Oblivion you are probably a hood rat or bum starting out...and you Rise ot the Occasion because A) You're a Born Hero. (I.E. Think Fable, you can be a bad guy, but you're still a Hero). B) Ancestors whom ever you came from probably were heros. Supernatural Force..that would more so be Neravine. I.E. He has Gods who talk to him, he has People who assist him, he has his OWN Bad Guy TALK to him and TELL him..."I'm waiting at Red Mountain....Lets talk". It's the classic Over Zealous/Egotistical Enemy who thinks he can do/say something and get his way each time.

Thanks to Other games..I have more respect for the Oblivion counterpart, even though I must have played Morrowind ten times more and enjoyed the Layout abit more. Being blasted from my sleep by assassins, Zombie Ash Demons and the whole Dialogue between you and Dagoth Ur was pretty impressive. I only wish you could have Talked Dagoth Ur down and had him join you on restoring things...IF you had the ability to do that, I would have thought Neravine abit more impressive because, I've yet played a game or heard a story that the hero talked down the final boss (So to speak). Mass Effect you get close to it due to Saren...but...yea look how that winds up. xD

Actually I'm stating the assumption to make it clear. It's what you do when you state your solution to a problem. It shows I'm making the same assumption as everyone else here, which would allow people to mention any errors I possibly made (e.g. In Morrowind it was possible to be head of all guilds) The one ignorant here is *YOU*.

Yes. In terms of lore then. Bearing in mind that there is no set definition of Lore in the Elder Scrolls series on the offici
Lore is all information presented to us by the game, correct?
Therefore, Lore is all the information we can obtain by internal sources, such as in-game books?
Well, correct me if I am wrong, but in that case NPC dialog counts as lore, because NPC's wrote the books. If NPC dialog is an invalid source of Lore, then books attributed to NPCs have no value in terms of Lore. Therefore Lore does not exist.

All dialog must be a source of Lore, and conversely, cannot be gameplay.

Again with YOUR ignorance. 100% game completion means he did everything he could. There is no possibility that he did not complete a quest. Additionally, forced does not mean the same as manipulated. You can be manipulated into doing something without being forced to do something.
Manipulated: "Control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously"
He was manipulated into destroying the dark brotherhood actually. It's part of the quest line....
He was deceived about being Sheogorath - he can't use powers while in Tamriel. Haskill told him that, and it was true.

He is cleverly controlled as a solution to the oblivion crisis.
He is cleverly AND unfairly influenced by a "master thief" to steal the elder scroll. The Gray Fox could have stolen it, he came up with the plan after all.
The emperor uses him as a general errand boy until the emperor can steal all the glory of the Mehrunes Dagon kill. That is clever influence, right there.

IN ADDITION, the fact that he KNOWS where Blueblood is, despite never finding it before in his life, IS LORE, because guess what? It's on his map, which he made. If he was to be killed immediately after being given the instructions, his map would show that he already had the answer to the problem in his journal which he was trying to solve. No one TOLD him where that was, and he isn't aware that he is marked it on his map. That's undeniably supernatural influence, not gameplay, because the characters inside the game would see the same thing

Lord Indoril Nerevar wasn't a god, he was a saint. Any powers he had were given to him by his ring. Likewise, the Nerevarine had no powers. He gained his abilities through hard work, just like the CoC.

I wasn't talking game mechanics either, even though you might have thought I was. Fighting Dagoth Ur is as much lore as it is gameplay. And there is no indication that the Nerevarine took a silt strider to Balmora; that's YOU talking game mechanics now. In lore, there is only the start and the end. Everything in between is decided by the player. For all we know, he might have gone to Solstheim first before heading to Balmora. We don't know.

The CoC didn't start off very differently than the Nerevarine. They were both nobodies no one knew, starting off with very little before becoming heroes. Neither of them had more help than the other. The CoC had Jauffre and Martin Septim, the Nerevarine had Caius Cosades for the most part and some indirect help from Azura and Vivec. I don't see much difference.

There was no indication in lore that the CoC couldn't return to the Imperial City. As I said, he was a nobody. And I doubt anyone would've been looking for an escaped prisoner when the Emperor and two skilled Blades had been murdered.

But "a bunch of subjective nonsense that brings gameplay mechanics into play and ignores what actually happened from the perspective of inside the game?" Okay.