Most Impressive Protagonist? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:33 am

I like how this thread is now a Morrowind vs. Oblivion thread. And I know I haven't helped that, but I didn't even vote for Morrowind or Oblivion. Eternal Champion all the way.

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:32 pm

My vote goes to daggerfall.

Morrowinds PC is just a puppet who gets epic loot.

Oblivions PC really only helped Martin.

Daggerfall PC got [censored] done.

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:53 pm

Assuming every quest line possible for a single character is carried out to 100% completion, I would have voted Oblivion...

But...
In Morrowind, a stranger in a foreign land becomes a key part of the history of that land.
As head of as many guilds as he could manage, he is guaranteed to be incredibly skilled in multiple disciplines.
He is a skilled cartographer, single handedly discovering and adding hundreds of locations to his map.
He discovers dozens of people in the wilderness and helps them solve their problems.
He revolutionizes the religious system of the land, unmasking not three, but FOUR false 'gods' and causing them to become mortal, what's more, the people accept him when he does this.
He gets to know people and talks to them and uses them to gain the information he needs to complete his goals.
He could have failed and joined others in their failure, including himself.
He is fearsomely skilled in combat.

In Oblivion, a prisoner in a land, which in all likelihood is not foreign, becomes a key part of the history of the world.
As head of as many guilds he could manage, he proves himself not necessarily to be particularly skilled at anything except trickery and subterfuge.
He never needs to get better at anything he does, because he is already the best.
He always knows where he is going and what to do, with a unique ability to understand the most useless instructions, suggestions and other dialog from other characters.
He is not necessarily skilled in combat, just adequate.
He is manipulated to steal an elder scroll for another person's selfish means.
He is manipulated to avert the Oblivion crisis because the rest of the world can't be bothered. Those few that can be bothered are inadequately skilled or prepared.
He is manipulated into annihilating the Dark Brotherhood.
He could not have failed and joined others in their failure, because outside the thieves guild there is no evidence anywhere that anyone is competing with him.
He is the first person who isn't incompetent to march into Oblivion and the Shivering Isles
He is always in the right place at the right time.
He kills a Daedric Prince, and becomes a new Daedric prince who never existed. He is not able to use his powers in Tamriel during the Oblivion Crisis, indicating that in fact, he is not daedra. Therefore he is manipulated into thinking that he is a daedric prince while in fact, being a daedric prince in name only.
He is manipulated by the Emperor into doing all the hard work so that the Emperor can swoop in and steal his kill.

oh and did I mention that in Oblivion, the prisoner's every deed can not truely be called his own because with very few exceptions, he never has to figure a problem about by himself (where the human player is the consciousness of the prisoner), but instead is lead through all his achievements by a supernatural force?

On the other hand, the prisoner in Oblivion has an impressive skill at knowing where locations are that he hasn't been given directions to and what is lying over the next hill.

Jesus christ, one would think it impossible to be this biased. And then you bring gameplay mechanics into it.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:12 pm

IN ADDITION, the fact that he KNOWS where Blueblood is, despite never finding it before in his life, IS LORE, because guess what? It's on his map, which he made. If he was to be killed immediately after being given the instructions, his map would show that he already had the answer to the problem in his journal which he was trying to solve. No one TOLD him where that was, and he isn't aware that he is marked it on his map. That's undeniably supernatural influence, not gameplay, because the characters inside the game would see the same thing

Yet again, you bring up gameplay. At any point in time will you inquire to stop being a fool?

He did it, bottom line. For all I care, the player could have used a console command to beat all quests.

But LORE wise, he did it. Its written in stone.

Now, I am positive that you hate the gameplay of Oblivion. Well that svcks for you, but the questline glorified the CoC much more. Even if you intend to use linguistic games to scapegoat him.

The Nerevarine was manipulated into working for the blades.
The Nerevarine was manipulated into working for almalexia
The Nerevarine was manipulated into killing Dagoth Ur

What is any different from the CoC and the Nerevarine?

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:50 pm

Hmmm... I'd say Oblivion, because you turn into a God.

But the Nerevarine is going to have done some awesome things by Skyrim.

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:46 am

Oblivion's hero...why? HE KILLED A DAEDRIC PRINCE AND BECAME A DAEDRIC PRINCE!

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:07 pm

He became a Daedric Prince who never existed as previously stated.

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:47 pm

The CoC for me. Saved Tamriel from a daedric invasion (sacking sancre tore, defeating Camoran in paradise etc). Became the defending avatar of the Nine to defeat Umaril. Defeated Jygallag and stopped the Grey March. And most impressive of all, mantled the mad god and became Sheogorath.

Also it's amusing when people deny lore in favor of their own theories. There's plenty of lore in plenty of fictional universes we can disagree with, but we have to accept the reality. Also Haskill being Sheo is a terrible theory that ignores the whole nature of the Sheogorath/Jygalag conflict. It ignores the reason for the grey march. It ignores Jygalag's curse, and it ignores the purpose and urgency of Sheogorath's preparation of the CoC to become the daedric prince of madness.

Also the CoC could maintain the realm because he became the personification of Sheo. Sheo prepared symbols that would allow for that possibility i.e. the Staff of Madness, the fountain of madness etc. Without Sheo's accommodation these symbols would be meaningless. In SI they super impose the mortal CoC with the personification of the concept of madness.

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:22 pm

Meh, I think killing three divines is more impressive than one Daedric Prince. Becoming a Daedric Prince? Yeah, that's pretty cool, but he had no power outside his own realm. Which is another reason why I think the Nerevarine is more impressive.

But Eternal Champion beats all any day.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:37 pm

The divines the Nevarine defeated Amalexia and Dagon had lost their connection to the heart. And only one of those divines still had something approaching godly power. The CoC defeated a demi god and a full god.

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:14 pm

Lord Indoril Nerevar wasn't a god, he was a saint. Any powers he had were given to him by his ring. Likewise, the Nerevarine had no powers. He gained his abilities through hard work, just like the CoC.

I wasn't talking game mechanics either, even though you might have thought I was. Fighting Dagoth Ur is as much lore as it is gameplay. And there is no indication that the Nerevarine took a silt strider to Balmora; that's YOU talking game mechanics now. In lore, there is only the start and the end. Everything in between is decided by the player. For all we know, he might have gone to Solstheim first before heading to Balmora. We don't know.

The CoC didn't start off very differently than the Nerevarine. They were both nobodies no one knew, starting off with very little before becoming heroes. Neither of them had more help than the other. The CoC had Jauffre and Martin Septim, the Nerevarine had Caius Cosades for the most part and some indirect help from Azura and Vivec. I don't see much difference.

There was no indication in lore that the CoC couldn't return to the Imperial City. As I said, he was a nobody. And I doubt anyone would've been looking for an escaped prisoner when the Emperor and two skilled Blades had been murdered.

1. True. But he went from Sainthood to God that was the whoel point of being REINCARNATED into the Neravine/Neravar. I.E. Almalexia was your Wife. (And effin pissed me off when you had to kill her. : ( ). Vivec, Sotha Sil, Dagoth, and Almalexia...then you.
2. Yes gameplay cannot equal lore, How he fought Dagoth = You may have fought him With Swords, Maces, Magic, Spears, Bows and Arrows, you might have been a stealthy person/magic persona/combat person...So that is why the Gameplay cannot equal Lore. Everyone fought him a different way. Some went in with a Robe enchanted with specific resistances, some went in fighting with full Armor that had no enchants, some went in butt naked and fought him Bare fisted. <----Gameplay DOES NOT EQUAL Lore.
and LOL AT HIM NOT TAKING A SILT STRIDER. That was, he didn't have to walk the lands. He was in a city, and didn't know who he was. It's safe to assume <---Of course assumptions can be wrong, BUT, it's safe to assume he stuck with his transportation means due to not knowing the wilderness being an Amnesiac and all. -sigh-
3. ....I just told you how they started...One woke up on a Boat, the other woke up in a Jail cell. One had to deliver a package and get his journey started/asked around town for help, the other Had to Fight his way out of a Sewer/Secret Passage then make his way through the wilderness to a Monestary. Neravine was a Silver Tongue type, Persuasion was his main goal, uniting the land so to speak. That was his ideal, was to unite the people of the land. <-----
4. Yes...there was...They "Felt" The amulet..if he walked back into the city..he would have been over whelmed/jumped by Cult Members who ousted the Emperor to go through the Jail Cells in the first place. The amulet is what they were after, and that is why when you come back with Martin, they attack. <-----If you didn't get that, then yes, you didn't pay attention. Before a Patch, the Game actually said you cannot go that way/too dangerous...I even complained about it. lol

They weren't needing to know who had the amulet, they just needed the amulet...which was the whole purpose of you running away and giving it to Jauffre, because they might not be able to retrieve it/"Sense" where it is out in the boonies where as it was always known the Emperor had the amulet. But you find out thats not the case, they were more powerful then expected, and found out where the amulet was through magic.

» Sun May 29, 2011 2:39 am

The divines the Nevarine defeated Amalexia and Dagon had lost their connection to the heart. And only one of those divines still had something approaching godly power. The CoC defeated a demi god and a full god.

True, but they still retained quite a bit of their power.

The Nerevarine also defeated Hircine, a Daedric Prince like Sheogorath. The Nerevarine didn't become a Daedric Prince like the CoC, but it was still a very impressive feat.

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:20 pm

True, but they still retained quite a bit of their power.

The Nerevarine also defeated Hircine, a Daedric Prince like Sheogorath. The Nerevarine didn't become a Daedric Prince like the CoC, but it was still a very impressive feat.

That is partially correct. He defeated an aspect of Hircine.

Hircine did not use his full power. He gave you 3 aspects of him to choose to fight. I'm not sure if this can be equated this way but. He beat 1/3 of a Daedric Prince

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:42 am

in morrowind you had to use the fork of horripilation............that pretty much beats everything else in any other TES game.

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:56 pm

You get the fork of horripilation in Oblivion to O_o

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:35 pm

You get the fork of horripilation in Oblivion to O_o

But you actually had to use it in Morrowind. Killing Giant Netch with Fork > Just Carrying Fork to Big Head :blink:

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:16 pm

Yet again, you bring up gameplay. At any point in time will you inquire to stop being a fool?

He did it, bottom line. For all I care, the player could have used a console command to beat all quests.

But LORE wise, he did it. Its written in stone.

Now, I am positive that you hate the gameplay of Oblivion. Well that svcks for you, but the questline glorified the CoC much more. Even if you intend to use linguistic games to scapegoat him.

The Nerevarine was manipulated into working for the blades.
The Nerevarine was manipulated into working for almalexia
The Nerevarine was manipulated into killing Dagoth Ur

What is any different from the CoC and the Nerevarine?

That time is now

Have I got my definitions completely wrong? It doesn't help that the gameplay definition completely contradicts the Lore definition (according to that most useful and useless of resources, Wikipedia, part of gameplay is plot) Because I really do not consider the map and journal record to be game-play in any way, shape or form. The simple reason being, if I became digitised and svcked into the game right now, then I could walk up to the champion and demand to see his journal and map.

Now that is gameplay. We're assuming he is part of the game world, remember? Console commands don't apply to him.

I didn't feel that glorified to be honest. People loved him from the get go. In morrowind, he was called a heretic and all that, then became a savior

Nah, I'll be honest. I loved Oblivion. I didn't feel the plot or dialog was done well, the quest target made quests too easy and the range of weapons felt more limited in comparison to Mw. The rest of it was really excellent, especially the concept behind Radiant AI, spoken dialog, to name a few aspects. That's totally off topic.

Hahaha touche. It's sad, because I can't argue against that use of the word manipulate without arguing against my previous points. Well done Sir

However, the Nerevarine was offered a job (to work for the blades) and took it, gradually learning about his part in the wider plot. It was suggested that he worked for Caius to make some cash, and he took the job, then the main plot slowly revealed itself to him.

@ another poster, seeing as yes, he was an "outlander", the RE-incarnated form of Nerevar WAS a foreigner to that land. Few people would send a prisoner to the land of their birth when they were in their custody. For whatever reason he was exiled. Plus he never meets any of his family, doesn't the Dark Elf Nerevarine get referred to as an outlander by other dark elves? (that is pure conjecture, I can't remember the script in that much detail) If he does, then that indicates that he doesn't speak or look like a Morrowind native would. (Or they are just more xenophobic than I'm willing to give them credit for)

I'm positive that I hate the fact that the Champion had his kill stealed, while on the other hand the Nerevarine succeeded where another version of himself had failed. That's much more impressive to me than Champion's first on the job gets the job done perfectly approach to life. Plus the fact that the Champion was so deceived about being Daedra.

Off topic, and nicely contradicting my own argument, but hey whatever. Do you think that in Skyrim, we'll have all the Daedra, plus Jygawhatshisname, with Sheogorath still being the Champion of Cyrodil? That could be an awesome moment, and would be lore so it would prove the lore from the Shivering Isles expansion wrong (and that was supplied by Haskill, who is possibly insane and therefore unreliable)

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:17 pm

The hero of Oblivion killed a lot of daedra (though so did everyone else) and defeated a daedric prince. Sure enough, he was essential for the survival of the Empire, but so was the hero of Arena, yet both of them mainly just ran around and killed stuff. The Nerevarine took down several demigods, at least one of whom was still at full power, also defeated an aspect of a daedra prince. The Daggerfall hero? Created a new kingdom, had a new god ascend, ended a bloody war, and most importantly - caused a dragon break. I'd say that's the most impressive - as badass as the other heroes may be, none of them actually screwed with time-space like that. Also, the Battlespire character fought through hordes of daedra, survived one of Hircine's hunts, faced Dagon and pvssyd with him a bit before banishing him. Not quite as impressive as the Daggerfall hero, but still pretty awesome.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:34 am

The Nerevarine isn't necessarily Nerevar reborn. Given that Azura told several other people they were Nerevar Reborn(They failed as evidenced by the cavern of the incarnate). Just some normal guy told to do something, which he did.

He kills a CHIM user.(You said they do everything) Even if he hadn't been able to access the heart in 400 years, that is extremely impressive of its own right.
Oh...and Gaenor. The Nerevarine kills Gaenor. There is no equal to this. Mehrunes Dagon would fall against Gaenor even in his own realm.

The CoC never defeats a Daedric Prince in his own realm, and has already mantled Sheo by that point(You have Sheo's things, staff of madness, etc, by the time you fight Jyg), it's not that impressive. The realm is still Sheo's, not Jygallags. You fight a washed up avatar of the old prince who has no actual realm. He may get one in the future, but he has very little power in the isles.

The Battlespire Initiate is literally alone in a tower full of extremely powerful daedra(and Dagon). He demonstrates combat ability, wit, determination, resourcefulness, and magical ability. As stated above, he actually chats with Dagon a bit before banishing him.(As well as convincing other daedra to stop fighting him)

The EC is interesting. Nobody really wants to help you save for the spirit of the dead mage(Can't remember her name at the moment). You go into some really nasty dungeons and you struggle for 10 years before you can accomplish your task. This isn't your destiny, fate hasn't decreed you as its champion...you're just the last person left who can do it.

The Agent of Daggerfall demonstrates a good deal of subterfuge and the ability to manuever a political court without being assassinated. Given the ramifications of what he does, I'd say he was pretty impressive. Too bad he got himself killed.

Impressiveness

Battlespire Initiate > Eternal Champion > Daggerfall Agent > Nerevarine > CoC

I found those three the most interesting because they don't have some divine intervention going for them. They're just http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassNormal in a world full of gods, demigods, and supernaturals.

I'd add Cyrus in there somewhere, but I don't know redguard very well. In terms of power I'd go

Nerevarine > CoC = Initiate > Agent = EC

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:22 pm

The Nerevarine isn't necessarily Nerevar reborn. Given that Azura told several other people they were Nerevar Reborn(They failed as evidenced by the cavern of the incarnate). Just some normal guy told to do something, which he did.

Exactly. I think people take what people say way to seriously. Not everyone tells the truth about everything. And that's a great thing.

Everything else you've said.

I agree with this guy compeltely. While I've never actually played Battlespire to tell for myself, he does seem rather impressive from what I've heard.

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:21 pm

Well I guess becoming a Divine being doesn't count for much in your eyes does it?

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:37 pm

1. True. But he went from Sainthood to God that was the whoel point of being REINCARNATED into the Neravine/Neravar. I.E. Almalexia was your Wife. (And effin pissed me off when you had to kill her. : ( ). Vivec, Sotha Sil, Dagoth, and Almalexia...then you.
2. Yes gameplay cannot equal lore, How he fought Dagoth = You may have fought him With Swords, Maces, Magic, Spears, Bows and Arrows, you might have been a stealthy person/magic persona/combat person...So that is why the Gameplay cannot equal Lore. Everyone fought him a different way. Some went in with a Robe enchanted with specific resistances, some went in fighting with full Armor that had no enchants, some went in butt naked and fought him Bare fisted. <----Gameplay DOES NOT EQUAL Lore.
and LOL AT HIM NOT TAKING A SILT STRIDER. That was, he didn't have to walk the lands. He was in a city, and didn't know who he was. It's safe to assume <---Of course assumptions can be wrong, BUT, it's safe to assume he stuck with his transportation means due to not knowing the wilderness being an Amnesiac and all. -sigh-
3. ....I just told you how they started...One woke up on a Boat, the other woke up in a Jail cell. One had to deliver a package and get his journey started/asked around town for help, the other Had to Fight his way out of a Sewer/Secret Passage then make his way through the wilderness to a Monestary. Neravine was a Silver Tongue type, Persuasion was his main goal, uniting the land so to speak. That was his ideal, was to unite the people of the land. <-----
4. Yes...there was...They "Felt" The amulet..if he walked back into the city..he would have been over whelmed/jumped by Cult Members who ousted the Emperor to go through the Jail Cells in the first place. The amulet is what they were after, and that is why when you come back with Martin, they attack. <-----If you didn't get that, then yes, you didn't pay attention. Before a Patch, the Game actually said you cannot go that way/too dangerous...I even complained about it. lol

They weren't needing to know who had the amulet, they just needed the amulet...which was the whole purpose of you running away and giving it to Jauffre, because they might not be able to retrieve it/"Sense" where it is out in the boonies where as it was always known the Emperor had the amulet. But you find out thats not the case, they were more powerful then expected, and found out where the amulet was through magic.

1) Almalexia didn't obtain her power until after Nerevar died. Plus, the Nerevarine might be an incarnate of Nerevar, but that doesn't mean he has Nerevar's power.
2) Um... You completely turned around the point I was trying to make so it would suit you.
3) Yes, because a well-travelled road is definitely the wilderness :rolleyes: .
4) I've seen no indication that they could "feel" the Amulet. You're just theorizing now.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:29 pm

Well I guess becoming a Divine being doesn't count for much in your eyes does it?

People do it all the time. It's not very impressive. Heck in the fifth era, there's a group of people STTITNMing.

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:06 pm

None of those are feats could be achieved by the lesser man. Also keep in mind, those 8 pieces of the staff of chaos are a pain in the [censored] to get. For each one, you have to find out which province the staff is in based on a clue (Usually not that hard if you know your basic TES Geography, although Elsweyr was not a desert in Arena) and then travel to a city within that province and begin poking your nose around rumors regarding the fabled dungeon that its in. These dungeons, judging by the reactions of usual locals to great scholars, are sort of the equivalent to Troy before its location was found in the real world, as most people aren't sure they even exist. Once you find someone who can point the way to someone who knows how or where to find this dungeon, you must track him down to the next city, find which building he resides in (Usually the head of a mage guild chapter or a priest in a chapel, or sometimes even a monarch of a fief in the province), and before he could give you the location to find this dungeon, he needs you to go to a different dungeon and retrieve something he needs to decode the elder scrolls in order to truly reveal its location. So you go to some orc stronghold, or knight keep, or whatever, battle your way through hordes of monsters (And they could kill you a lot easier than in any other elder scrolls game, so you gotta get them fast), make it to the stolen artifact, and bring it back. Finally the elder scroll reveals the location of the dungeon. Now you have to go to a much larger dungeon, crawl through it trying to memorize your paths and such so as not to get lost, make your way through dank flooded tunnels, narrow corridors (Every so often the cool immersive note like a message written on blood, or a description of an old dwarven temple you are currently standing in), and lots of monsters. Sometimes having to backtrack to find keys and stuff. When you make it to the inner chambers, find a staff of chaos piece, and go to have a dream, expecting the heavenly ghost of the beautiful Ria Silmane who guides your journey, only to find Jagar Tharn personally confronting you through your dreams, spewing out threats not to meddle in his affairs (Taking you as more and more of a personal threat with each piece of the staff you find), and then he sends a minion to dispose of you. After you defeat a spellsword, or a battle mage and return to town and have a much needed rest at an inn, Ria Silmane contacts you through your dreams once more, gives the name of another great dungeon which holds the staff of chaos, and a vague image of the province its in, and you repeat the cycle. Have to do this 8 times in fact until you finally make it to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM6yCJ2Q8sM.

Oh, did I mention the riddles you have to solve?

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:06 pm

He kills a CHIM user.(You said they do everything) Even if he hadn't been able to access the heart in 400 years, that is extremely impressive of its own right.
Oh...and Gaenor. The Nerevarine kills Gaenor. There is no equal to this. Mehrunes Dagon would fall against Gaenor even in his own realm.

Oh boy

that was hilarious , gaeonor the maw of doom