You're right, sorry!

Personally, I think that *IF* SKSE isn't absolutely essential then it's best to avoid it. My flying machine mod uses it because trying to get the control keypresses any other way is (as best I can tell) just not practical - and there are a bunch of things it makes easier as well.

Picked the 3rd option but not because I attempt deliberately to avoid using it. I simply do what I need, and if it ends up being using an SKSE function instead of some vanilla Papyrus code, so be it.

I really don't get how it is we went from Oblivion and OBSE being virtually inseparable to Skyrim and the poisonous atmosphere of outright SKSE-hate I see everywhere. That boggles the mind.

I don't get it either.

I have some friends who only just started using SKSE and mods that need it (after much encouragement from me) about last week. There seems to be a myth that SKSE breaks and ruins your game. And that it is really difficult to install.

But these friends are compulsive beta testers and mod testers and, as a safety feature, if your Skyrim patch version did not match the SKSE version, you could not run the game. That means they could not beta test game patches if they had SKSE. The rest of us would be affected after full patch release for a day or two until SKSE was updated, but for beta testers it would be a few weeks.

I think that is where this myth comes from.

I also voted 3. I am not very skilled, but if something I want needs a SKSE function/command etc I don't mind using it.

~.~

I also always try to make SKSE use optional when possible. Partially it's out of consideration for those who don't want to add a third-party executable to their games and partially it's a left-over instinct because I've been around since the early days and the MWSE functions were all slower than native functions.
Skyrim is like Morrowind in so many ways. Resistance to using the script extender is one of them. It took forever to convince people to install MWSE too. Part of the problem is that Skyrim has attracted a whole new fan base and it makes sense that at least some of them would be suspicious of anything that couldn't be hosted on Steam Workshop, especially in the early days. I also watched some of the early SKSE evangelism which repeated the same old MWSE mistakes. (Some of the lessons that should have been learned by now include: Don't tell people they are being silly for not wanting to install it. Don't waste your breath explaining in the abstract how useful it could be. Do make a few really good mods that use it to do things that can't be done any other way. And finally, don't get upset when people complain that your mod "should" be possible without a script extender.)

i strongly subscribe to this.

(..not saying i wasn't sometimes a bit envious about all them neat skse functions... - but still. as long as it's not shipped with the vanilla game, it's not an option for me.

well ok, but if that one part of this fork is a version working WITHOUT skse already, what for add ANOTHER version that does need it in the first place---?

There are lots of mods that work without SKSE but do not have full functionality. You need SKSE to do the things that Papyrus cannot.

I just made a spell for myself (with some help from people here) that gets all the stats of whatever I cast it on, Follower, NPC, Creature, Animal, Friend or Foe.

It "works" without SKSE, but you don't get the Name, Race and Class of the target as they are SKSE functions/codes/commands whatever.

Similarly with CFM - it works without SKSE, but you cannot save equipsets in-game and you lose a few other functions.

~.~

Besides using SKSE for things that would not be possible otherwise anyway, my general rule of thumb is that whenever SKSE allows me to (I) implement a better solution or (II) makes my life easier, I add it as a dependency.

(I) because I want the best possible end result, for the player and also for myself as I intend to play my mods.

(II) because my available time and motivation are a finite resources. Sounds obvious, but I think when not working with deadlines, people tend to ignore that fact. It's true, theoretically I can take as much time as I need and spend weeks trying to figure out a complex workaround for something that would be easy with SKSE, but in that time I could also be working on new features or other improvements. These workarounds also have to be tested and maintained.

Furthermore, (II) is also the reason why I don't implement non-SKSE fallbacks. Either I spend my time trying to make things less bad for people who are unwilling to install SKSE, or I spend it making them better for people who are. I choose the latter.

I think this is a pretty good point. I've always felt that if you're going to write code that needs the extender, there's little point in trying to dodge bullets with people who won't install the extender. Just tell people it needs SKSE and be done with it.

oh.

now that's something i guess i'd not do at all.

(letting aside the fact i'm not using it anyway,) i'd sure make it just skse dependent or just not, making things so they'd end up "half a bit of kind of working, if" just doesn't really sound like "it"...

It's not really anything new. I've seen plenty of comments for OBSE mods that begged the modder to release a non-OBSE version and often refused to accept that whatever the mod in question did would be impossible to do without OBSE. Same with the script extenders for FO3 and New Vegas.

Anyway, I voted yes. If I make a script and SKSE allows me to do something that would be more difficult or impossible to do with the vanilla script, then why wouldn't I use SKSE?

'Working' vs. 'Working as intended with all the bells, whistles, and extra functionality utilizing everything at my disposal' are different. What I mean is that you can fork your code around SKSE's presence such that, if installed, your mod does more than if it isn't. Elasticity.

Example: Bag of Holding, if SKSE is there, will modify the gold value of the bag inventory item to reflect the cumulative value of its contents. Other stuff independent of SKSE must transpire regardless, but I must check for SKSE preemptively that SKSE's SetGoldValue won't spam users' debug logs OnItemAdded/Removed, nor will resources be unnecessarily spent if !SKSE. In short, SKSE isn't required, but more features and options are afforded to the SKSE user.

Off topic but as a mod users (not maker) i installed SKSE instantly when it was available. To this day i can only think of two mods i have that require it, but that's beside the point; i use it either way, just in case.

A very good attitude there.

If I find a mod I like but, it uses something I would not normally use, I will not install that mod. For me to change that policy would require a very special mod. Even the huge and excellent Falskaar mod did not require any additional downloads.

I'm starting to get the feeling that being anti-SKSE is somewhat close to being a big middle finger up to modders because you don't want to download something that makes life easier for them. Talk about being entitled.

I had SKSE long before modding and I didn't know exactly what it did other than it allowed modders to do more stuff with the CK. That was enough for me to download it and always use it. It was like a key to amazing possibilities in my eyes and was quite happy for someone to have created it.

Have you made any mods? Judging by that comment about Falskaar you haven't. Falskaar is meant to act as an expansion, it's not a mod that adds new features or gameplay changes that needs to rely on SKSE for them to work.

No, it's not. That particular attitude is antagonizing because very notion of "forcing" is misplaced. If you utilize the script extender to create a mod that would otherwise be impossible, that means it's a necessary dependency. It's not one of these constructed dependencies like single-player games forcing you to be online to play. No script extender = no mod. No amount of attitude can replace functionality that is just not there.

What you could rather say is: I'm not interested in creating or using mods that rely on anything else but the base game itself. That is your choice and nothing wrong with that, it has always been a valid reason for not using the script extender. But that's mainly a question of which types of mods you are interested in creating/using.

I _think_ I know where that whole idea of forcing people to install SKSE is coming from though: One can install a mod that requires SKSE, then in-game it'll notify you "please install SKSE", as opposed to you not being able to install the mod in the first place if SKSE is missing. At least in the case of SkyUI I think this has always created the impression that the dependency is not really necessary, or that you've just been told when it was already too late as the mod is now already in your game (reasonably assuming that any instructions were ignored).

Spot on. If users can accept that they probably need to use utilities like BOSS, Bash, TESEdit and a mod manager to obtain a stable modded game, what is the problem with using an alternate launcher?

I did the exact same and for the same reasons. There is a serious lack of appreciation for what the SKSE guys have done for Skyrim modding by many uneducated mod users.

Also, some SKSE plugins are really useful for mod makers (Conskrybe, Fus roh doh).

Mods that do that all say that they require SKSE for full functionality. There is nothing in the mod that stops it loading or working if SKSE is not installed, but the Description and ReadMe state very clearly and prominently that SKSE is needed for full functionality.

So If you want it to work properly, get SKSE. If you don't want it to work properly, don't get SKSE.

Or don't use those mods.

Personally, I don't understand the resistance to using SKSE. If someone has used the same coding language to enable or create functions and commands that Papyrus and the CK does not have, I think that not only are they extra-ordinarily clever, but they are really decent people to make it (and the source code) available free of charge so people can make and use better mods. There are an enormous number of mods that allow players to do things that Vanilla just is not capable of.

And I am not talking about simple stuff like new recipes for crafting and spells with more damage and greater duration.

Look at SkyUI for a start.

~.~

Indeed. As I touched on in the second post of this thread, two things let me not use SKSE without issue. First, I set out from the very start not to use any external tools/reqs that weren't absolutely necessary. And second, Falskaar (while doing complex things often) never really does any 'deep' scripting things. It barely ever tries to alter gameplay or how the world functions, and is mostly experienced through the use of quests, scenes, and smaller script entities. It has no need for the increased depth of SKSE, that's why it isn't required. Plenty of other huge crazy mods need SKSE because they do very deep scripting. Better functions, or optimized functionality is essential for them to work well, so by all means they should use SKSE, and people should be willing to use it if they wish to use that mod.

I don't understand the resistance towards SKSE either. If you need it, and it would help a lot, go ahead and use it. People should be willing to use it, as it's so widely trusted and supported at this point, it's practically official. It's not like you're downloading some random shifty file from an unknown source to hijack the executable and do unknown things to your computer behind your back. It's a simple, trusted extension that is widely used in the community. It's silly to not want to get it if a mod you're interested in requires it...

I chose response No3.

You wouldn't believe the screamage I got because of ApahchiiSkyHairs.

Another dependency - would have also induced ranting.

oh, that's you? thx for saving me countless hours of real life time by NOT being overencumbered then man...

(before i started modding myself anyway (fnv), and for now, i hope you don't mind the little competition (-> cache sacks - but they're a somewhat different field of application anyway)

Use it: absolutely. I'm not going to go through ridiculous hoops just to come up with workarounds to accommodate folks that don't want to use SKSE. If they don't want to use it, then use other mods.

It's not so black and white as all that. Scripts can easily accommodate both the SKSE user and non-SKSE user alike without either instance working, well, improperly. Think of it like an app that can utilize hyperthreading and/or > 3GB RAM (if available) and does vs. one that could but does not. In many cases a mod can do something more seamlessly with SKSE than without, yet is still able to work properly yet less seamlessly without. Substiutute 'properly' with 'optimally' and you're onto something.

"If we don't need it, we don't add it" (Beth regarding function inclusion).

Were all the SKSE functions available to Beth devs, I'm sure they'd be used like all the native functions but, alas, Beth's cart is aptly behind its ox as they simply didn't need said functions and subsequently didn't create them while modders do/have; development for mod creators and users never really ended so Skyrim has, just like Oblivion, and will continue to age like wine. That's [SKSE] why and how modders are able to accomplish, in many case, what even the official devs could not. To shun SKSE is to say, 'possibilities are finite as there's only so much modders can do' while that's, thankfully, not the case.

Anyhow, I understand one new to modding might be hesitant to install a dependency, but this [script extenders via the *SE Team] is one case where I don't think twice recommending one take the plunge as I've not once looked back since initially installing OBSE and seeing all the doors opened to modders in an effort to facilitate/enable their creative endeavors and accommodate their users' every whim.


Oh! Conflicts/preemptive resolution thereof: I've two mods that essentially do the same thing, Lightweight Potions and Poisons and Scale Tipper. Both reweigh potions and poisons, yet one necessarily overrides/conflicts with every potion in the game while the other does not. Thanks to SKSE's http://www.creationkit.com/SetWeight_-_Form, Scale Tipper never overrides nor is overridden by another mod such that mods which alter potion names, for instance, can work in tandem with it. SKSE allows other mods to... play friendly with each other sans cumbersome compatibility patches.

[there can be only two hundred and fifty-three]

Not any scripts written by me. I am just not that skilled!

I have been using your Bag of Holding for ages, by the way, and it is pretty brilliant. I have some friends who know you from Fallout days and wonder why you seem to have disappeared off the modding map for Skyrim - what happened? Do you just not like Skyrim much? Or is it the limitations of Papyrus?

In any case, it seems to me that there are functions that only SKSE can deliver. So if the mod has them, the user can either have those functions if he has SKSE or not have them if he doesn't have SKSE. I am not going to make another version of my Discern Abilities spell (not released) that doesn't use the SKSE functions and so does not report the target skills that need SKSE as blank, empty lines just because some troglodyte, know-nothing, modding tool Luddites won't use SKSE. That's their tough cheddar as far as I am concerned.

But if the exact same mod can be made without SKSE, why use it at all?

I make mods for my own entertainment, to learn stuff for fun and to do things in the game I want for myself. Except the Death Hound Smithing mods - I made those specifically for a friend who had zillions of death hound collars she didn't want to sell. I did not even have Dawnguard activated at the time, so finally installed the Legendary DVD just to make the mod and started playing the DLC myself.

I am not a programmer, just an amateur enthusiast. It's a peripheral hobby. The only reason I put some of my mods up on The Nexus was so friends could download them as they were too large to e-mail. A few hundred other people have downloaded them as well, which is great if they like the mods, and I have a few single-figure endorsemants.

But like most other mod makers, I make them for my own enjoyment, not for download numbers, endorsemants or to try and be "Mod of the Month". I have friends who only upload their mods to their own site due to overly-demanding Workshop and Nexus users screaming at them.

Talking about Modding Tool Luddites, I used to be very wary of TES5Edit (due to ignorance and fear of the unknown), but I use a few of it's functions to make sure my own mods are clean and to get a list of forms it contains. Very useful. I tried NMM, but it messes up UFO, so I stopped and went back to manual installing and I still have not tried making a Wrye Bash Patch. I do not even understand what BAIN even is.

I do use SkyProc for Dual Sheath Redux, but I am quite happy to use anything the knowledgeable programmers of the community recommend, as long as I am happy I am doing it correctly.

I think fear of screwing it up prevents a lot of people using certain tools as there is sometimes a steep learning curve. Even the SKSE installation instructions used to be a bit confusing to the Ultra-Noob, and I still have yet to find any manual instruction as to where the SRC folder is meant to go. The skse_installer.exe takes care of all that, though.

Cheers!

~.~