It was the Commona Tong. I was wondering why ya comparing the Thieve Guild with the Morag Tong.

With practice, anyone can become anything, and what about hybrid classes? Even in Daggerfall, my paladin is a member of the Fighters' Guild and the Mages' Guild(but more Fighters' Guild oriented). I've yet to try it in Morrowind yet, but I'm assuming it's possible there, as well.

It's in the game as the "Infamy" stat. It doesn't say which enemy faction, though - maybe you just like to murder innocents in their sleep.

Which is another case of "what the hell where they thinking?" regarging Oblivion. If the whole point of the Dark Brotherhood and to a lesser extend the Thieves Guild is to avoid been seen, you should only get Infamy when you fail a mission.

Hehe, yeah. I haven't really played Morrowind for like nine months. I could use a good, refreshing play-through.


With a TON of practice, sure, I guess that would be fine. But it was so easy to join (and be good at) both in Oblivion. I haven't tried it in Daggerfall, so IDK how it is for that.

So since Jack the Ripper was never caught he was never infamous?

He would only been infamous if he had screwed up then?

In a sense Jack the Ripper did fail. If he was successful people wouldn't even know there was a Jack the Ripper.

If people wanted to be forced down paths by a single choice, there are many franchises out there that are not TES. Oddly enough, TES typically comes out ahead in reviews on account of freedom, among other things. I question why anyone interested in limitations imposed for the sake of arbitrary and subjective feelings of "realism" in a video game would play TES games...

Depends on what you consider success

He successfully killed his victims and kept his identity concealed and was never caught right?

You're confusing an alias (Jack the Ripper) with the actual person. Or did everyone in London recognise Jack the Ripper as that infamous murderer when they met him on the street?

Jack the Ripper was infamous. Everyone knew Jack the Ripper. Nobody knew, however, that he was Realname Anyguy, and because he wasn't caught nobody talked to Realname Anyguy like he was a murderer while they were busy fearing Jack the Ripper.
Edit: Curse you KhardirgroGhurkag and your being faster than me

Perhaps you've never played TES games before Oblivion. They were full of realistic limitations which made TES feel like a world, and feeling like a world is pretty much what TES is all about. You wonder why I play TES games, when I just want what was in the EARLIER TES games? :lmao: Nice logic you got there.

Perhaps this is the place to mention it. When people compare these two games, one of the things that just isn't fair is defending one game for making a mistake but criticizing the other for making the same mistake. In another thread, one person basically said people not freaking out in Morrowind over the blight and Dagoth Ur is fine while people not freaking out over the Obliviion gates and Mehrunes Dagon in Oblivion isn't. I've also read similar comparisons with rain falling through roofs being acceptable in Morrowind but not in Oblivion due to architecture and something else that I can't remember but know I read somewhere.

But that's what I'm saying

Seti18 explained it better


There's no reason why if I was a part of the Dark Brotherhood (and I had never been caught) that someone from the Fighters Guild or Mages guild would know

Jack the Ripper was never caught hence he was infamous and why you could have been sitting next to his real identity counterpart and never know

There was no brand on his forehead just as there is no brand in Oblivion. If I walked into the Fighters Guild after murdering someone in the Dark Brotherhood they wouldn't instantly be able to tell

That is with practice and same goes with Morrowind, which I would consider it fine. Its more that such practice was "remove" without actually using the skill based or the attribute on such faction that usually associate with the faction in Oblivion. (the fighter guild would not let one join unless they are proven strong and skillful with wepons or the mage guild would let ya join in if one is REALLY good at one branch of Magic; these was remove in Oblivion)


In Daggerfall, the requirement or saying for joining a Guild, its the following:
Mages Guild: be REALLY good at magic if ya want to join
Fighter Guild: they would think you are weak if ya not strong enough
Thieves Guild: One have to steal/pickpockets ten successfully times.
Dark Brotherhood: you must kill at least three innocent citizens or fifteen town guards
Temples: There 8 of them for each of the Divine. Ya can only join one. Also, many of the temple hate each other. One temple REALLY hate the Mage Guild.
Knight: There 10 of them, usually killing dragons and rescuing princesses. Can only join one because each knight represent the region they are at.

Again. There is such a brand in Oblivion (it's called the "Infamy" stat), and even the stupidest guards can recognise it (hence they greet you with the nice "Bet you think you're somethin' huh? You call yourself a citizen of the Empire? No respect for order, no respect for law. You make me sick." line if they see you, instead of, for example, "Ah, it's good to see you, citizen! Oh yes, I know who you are. You've become something of a legend in these parts!"). Pretending it isn't there doesn't make it so.

But again I ask who makes the immersion in that case?

Is it the developer or the player? Do you need a game mechanic stating you have to be [insert level here] to be archmage or have [insert skill rank here] to join our guild?

When I did the mages guild recommendation quest I looked at each school of magic that was specific to that town. Before I could attempt that recommendation quest I had to have a certain skill level in that school of magic

Who makes or breaks immersion? Me or the developer?

If I thought that I should be archmage at level 100 and have mastered all of the spells but did it at level 1 with none of the schools of magic and said "OMG this is immersion breaking" it would be kinda ridiculous since I controlled my leveling and when I did those quests

You don't need a developers in game mechanic telling you that you can't do such and such because of this or that

And so that brings me back to the question: Who makes immersion work? You or the developer?



And that's where I would consider it a mistake on the Devs part

Only in the sense that perhaps they didn't have an alias to pin the blame on rather than the player or didn't know how to implement it.

And while I can't deny it is immersion breaking I can say that it should be fixed in that sense. If it's the same for the guilds it should be the same with the guards.

Neither. The authors and artists do. It has nothing to do with game mechanics, but is a function of the game world design and its presentation.

And I agree with that, but then, I don't understand very well this argument in the first place. It's been a while, but as I recall the only between-factions restrictions in Morrowind was the Great Houses. Even then, I imagine that was at least partly because they directly conflicted; the quest to attack the strongholds of the other houses would get awkward if you owned them all. The others, you could join freely. Likewise, neither game really did anything in terms of the factions interacting and being a member really meaning anything outside of the group. People seem to just be arguing the concept of it, which is going to be personal preference without any in-game backing and as such will never get anywhere further than mutual complaining.

I believe it requires both parties to make "immersion" work. The Developer is in charge of making the choices and joining the faction in a "believable" fashion and show obvious confliction in regard of joining a different faction and meeting the "requirement". The player is given with the choice and do whatever they can within the boundaries of it. The Developer lack this in Oblivion and the Player is given way too many choices that may or may not meet the initial requirement.

Whever or not it is a mistake doesn't change the fact that the Fighters Guild people do recognise you as an infamous thief and murderer when you are one.



The game designers did know how to implement it. Didn't you finish the Thieves Guild quest line? You acquire an (infamous) alias at the end of it ...

That is what I've been saying though. However I disagree that the authors and the artists do in the sense that the developers have given the player the freedom to follow that lore

Immersion has nothing to do with the game mechanic as you have so pointed out (and I have said)

But with the player who wants to follow the lore of the game that the artists, authors, and devs have created. Whether or not the player decides to follow that lore is what is immersive.

But you should be made to follow what's plausible in the TES lore and universe, otherwise it kind of makes that stuff useless.

Not "following the lore" should have consequences, though. People usually do stuff a specific way because it's the best way to do what they want to do they can think of. As such, trying to do something which makes no sense in the context of the game world (like, becoming the head of all guilds) and was never done before according to the lore should be very, very hard. Nearly impossible, in fact. Maybe even requiring several months worth of preparation and insane luck.

"Head of all guilds and champion of the arena at level one", the way Oblivion presents this task, is the exact opposite of it.

option 1: let's magically look at your stats and decide if you can join us or not

option 2: let's allow you to join us, but not to get into our institute of higher learning until you have proven your worth and are introduced to the schools of magic in their most basic form in your guided tour of Tamriel and basic instructions in the magical arts

option 3: let's allow you to join us because we're always looking for more recruits and we're low on recruits, so we're hiring again; if you get the job done(basically as part of the group of law-abiding mercenaries), we don't care about invisible numbers

option 4: murder someone, and we will contact you; murder another person to prove your dedication and ability to murder, and we don't care for imaginary numbers, we care for action

option 5: steal, and word may reach our ears if you are caught, or word may reach our ears of your snooping around for information about us; we will contact you and allow you to join our petty group of thieves who merely steal for a living and aren't too picky on imaginary numbers if you pass a test to prove your worth

option 6: ha ha ha ha, you won't last, but if you're serious, sure, we could use another suicidal idiot to die in the arena; I didn't expect you to succeed, but since you did, you're good enough to fight here, screw imaginary numbers

Which options are more believable and which one is the one used by Morrowind while the others are used by Oblivion?

Only if you completely disregard it

I've read a lot of the in game books and a lot of the lore (though I don't remember much because it's been a while) and do follow it