champion of cyrodiil. not often does a hero defeat dagon, jygallag and mannimarco. plus he becomes the gray fox and desroys an organisation known as blackwood company.

Considering that their portrayal was through the eyes of the CoC, it does nothing to validate any position. A crazy person does not know that they are crazy.

I understand your position, but the way that you're presenting it is as if it is the one and only truth.



It's a definite possibility but I still believe that the events did take place and were not just a mind game to amuse Sheogorath. Maybe the next game will have a book similar to the Madness of Pelagius for the CoC, that would be interesting. Still the events of The Shivering Isles did not necessarily take place before or after the Oblivion Crisis, it's hard to imagine a hero who's mind belonged to Sheogorath saving Tamriel from MD, but, anything is possible.

I like to think of the Champion of Cyrodiil and Sheogorath's Successor as two different people, since you didn't really have to do one quest to do the other.

Oh, forgot about that...

http://media.photobucket.com/image/mannimarco/RheddnAllie/Oblivion/RealMannimarco.jpg

Never thought of it this way...

Nervarine > Almalexia > Merhunes Dagon + Dagoth Ur (and potentially Vivec).

CoC > Merhunes Dagon

Hmm, yup, Nerevarine wins...

Eternal Champion is a close second.

The Eternal Champion just traveled a lot and defeated Jagar Tharn. The Battlespire hero defeated Tharn's boss, MD, by himself. And, Almalexia isn't exactly better than MD. In both times she fought him, she required the assistance of another person. In the first battle, it was she and Sotha Sil, and both came out battered and very badly injured, especially for Almalexia. By the time the nerevarine dispatched her, she was already pretty weakened due to not restoring her godly power for an extended period of time, along with Vivec and Sotha Sil

I suppose your right, but I could also point out that CoC didn't exactly beat MD either, Martin did it for them. On top of that, The hero in BS had one of the most powerful daedric artifacts in existence AND MD wasn't at his full power.

Almalexia may have been weakened (and a little crazy), but she could still beat Dagon if the CoC's performance is anything to go by, lol.

From what I've read on UESP, it seems at one point or another Bethesda might've been messing around with the idea of actually letting the player take out Dagon, and there's apparently a leftover of that or something where he'll liquify or some such after getting damaged enough of if you use the kill command. So no, psycho-[censored] is still pretty much pathetic as far as supernatural beings and great heroes and all that jazz goes.

Not really. She needed Sotha Sil's help when MD attacked Mournhold, and even then, she was knocking on death's door by the time the fight was over. 2920 pretty much describes her state of condition after the fight, which was very grave (she was stone grey, with horrific wounds, and had very nasty venom injected in her when MD sliced her abdomen. She barely won with the help of probably one of the most powerful users of magic Tamriel has ever seen, and even he was hurt badly, but not as bad as her)

And the Battlespire recruit fought MD when he was weakened, because he did discover a lot of his weaknesses, and did have possession of highly powerful artifacts.

True, although I'd certainly say that the Battlespire hero's journey spanned far less time - at least from his/her own perspective (regions such as the Chimaera of Desolation may or may not have had time progress at a radically different rate from that of the Mundus). The Eternal Champion, you have to wonder, ten years, if there was ever a sliver of doubt within them, if they ever once thought that there was no point in continuing, that the true Emperor may already be long gone and that the entire journey merely a wild goose chase. They pressed on of their own accord however, whereas the Battlespire hero was probably fighting more for their own escape/survival (though I'm not in any way denying that they weren't incredibly powerful all their own) at the time.

Think of Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge (best in the series, in my opinon) where Guybrush really only unintentionally destroys LeChuck to save his own skin - but for most of the game, he's really an antihero concerned with his own motives.


I always assumed that the liquification was just a standard occurrence whenever one "killed" a creature/NPC and the mesh wasn't properly rigged for ragdoll physics. It's either an incomplete ragdoll or it falls back to the vertex weights assigned to it for animations. Regardless, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm leaning towards the Nerevarine, seeing as most of the other heroes, however powerful they might be, are still only mortals, the Nerevarine on the other hand is immune to disease and age, that's a big advantage right there, plus, the Nerevarine has killed several gods in the game, granted, the members of the Tribunal the player could have killed were weakened due to no having access to the source of their power for a long time, and Dagoth Ur could only be killed after you cut him off from his powersource, but defeating gods is still no small achievement, even if some divine intervention (And no, I don't mean the spell.) was involved. Plus the Nerevarine had to face the ordeal of getting corprus and the various unpleasant Sixth House monsters, as well as dreams from Dagoth Ur, I'd imagine that it would require a strong mind to not become insane if one faced things like that in real life. Now, I can't comment on the deeds of the person from Battlespire or Redguard since I haven't played either of those games, doing some traveling and killing a mortal mage, even if a powerful one, as the Eternal Champion did, seems unimpressive by comparison, and while the hero of Daggerfall may have needed a bit of intelligence to deal with the game's more political plot, it doesn't necessarily require much actual strength, and it's not like the Nerevarine hasn't managed to get some influence of his own, being the Hortator of three houses and beig named Nerevarine by the Ashlander tribes (Though seeing as this was done under the threat of Dagoth Ur and some of the people voting for you really didn't seem to take their decision very seriously and just figured that since there's no harm in doing it, they might as well, one does not know how willing they would be to support you after the threat was gone, and Oblivion seems to indicate that the Nerevarine left that all behind, though maybe this was for the best considering later events.), the Nerevarine may also have risen to the top of one or more factions of your choosing, although most Elder Scrolls protagonists could have done that so it's somewhat irrelavent. Now, the Champion of Cyrodiil did a few great things too, but ultimately, stopping Mehrunes Dagon was a task that Martin had to complete, the Champion of Cyrodiil may have allowed him to get there, but when facing the Daedric Prince he could ultimately just watch Martin do what he must. Now, he did gain some powers in Shivering Isles, but these don't seem to work in Tamriel, so unless all characters were in Shivering Isles, it wouldn't be relevant.

Of course, trying to compare the powers of different Elder Scrolls heroes is somewhat pointless anyway, since they all faced different challenges in different games, and being as they never have to appear in each other's games, there isn't much need for them to be compared, it's kind of like asking which is a more powerful animal, a tiger or a lion, both have separate habitats, and are adapted to survive in their own homes, I'm sure neither would do very well if transplanted into the other's habitat.



Even if Bethesda had considered that, it never entered the final game, and therefore is irrelavent.

Personally I think gear counts towards power, unless it is specifically stated that we are talking about basic power without gear (and it wasn't). So for me being in the posession of the most powerful daedric artifacts in existence is actually a point in favor of being the strongest.

Battlespire Academy Initiate, wasnt he able to travel across countless daedric realms, and eventaully defeat Dagon in his own realm?

if thats not badass, i dont know what is.


The Eternal Champion was pretty special, remember he has been to the worst parts of tamriel. Hell, he even beat the Nerevarine to Red mountain and dagoth Ur's lair by 20+ years....and he didnt have god tools or disease immunity either. He also managed to save the emporer....the Champion of Cyrodiil couldnt do that. Every place on that to-do list that held a staff piece was also listed on the 'do not go here or die' list...the fact he was able ot reah the bottom of each one through ever horror of tamreil....amkes him/her (whatever) pretty amazing. not to mention he to was able to defeat an immortal (Jagar Tharn was immortal by the end of the game), so his achievements easily equal anyone elses. Sadly, he seems ot have dissappeared off the face of the planet.....my guess he is dead by the time of oblivion.....either that or he is Jauffre.....

Next best would be the near immortal Nerevarine, killing gods and using godlike tools makes him pretty powerful.

The problem is that due to the nature of daedric artifacts, you don't usually keep them very long, so that's only temporary power you have there. Which is why I wouldn't count that in - the poll asks about "what they are capable of to this day", and temporarily possessing a daedric artifact does not fit into that.
Same goes for temporary superpowers (the Battlespire protagonist has some of those, I believe.)
What DOES count is if there was a certain amount of wit involved to get the daedric artifact or the superpower. Because that'd be something that characterizes the protagonist.

I'm not sure if people should take into account the several expansions to the game OR any of the guild storylines, either. Basically, the only thing that is canonly done by your character is the main quest. In Morrowind, Tribunal counts as well, since that is all about you being the Nerevarine. But Bloodmoon doesn't count - it's not canon that the Nerevarine did this (unless I'm mistaken, and that actually playes a role in the expansion).
Likewise, Shivering Isles doesn't count, because it is not canon that the CoC did that.
(I believe the phenomenon behind this canon/not-canon thing is the Dragon Break. In your game, the CoC does all these things - but then there's a Dragon Break, and those things were actually all done by different people.)

I voted for the Eternal Champion, because I'm in full agreement with StoneFrog. I think that raw force is highly overrated - what makes you truly powerful is the ability to carry on despite all your doubts, to not rely on superficial power that could go away some day, and the wit to get what you want from people you DON'T want to destroy.

In Morrowind, I actually felt all the time that while I was certainly powerful, I was constantly being fooled by everyone. By the Blades, by Vivec... heck, Helseth tried to kill me like ten times (not even counting the multiple initial attacks), and I still followed his orders! Almalexia got increasingly mad and unreasonable, and I still did what she told me to do!
I felt like I was one big moron who just did what he was told to do. That doesn't seem all that powerful to me. And the Nerevarine must have felt the same way after all this... why else would he have sailed away to another continent.

Now what ever happened to http://uesp.net/wiki/File:Warhaft.png?

Thats it, we just need one of those discovery channel battle simulators.


Yep, thats another thing to consider. The Nerevarine never really had strong foresight of his own in MW.
Wait, actually there is a chance that the Nerevarive was not a total svcker. Back-path for MW and killing Helseth after Tribunal. He can still be a pissed off svcker. Which does not sound like the best snack.

Man, that. The Nerevarine was basically a piece of putty in the hands of the ashlanders and the Tribunal, sacrificing his own identity so he can become their little messiah figure or whatever. At least the CoC did his stuff as himself. This is some Randian crap we're getting into here.

EDITL: Well, at least until Shiverin' Isles came along, but even then that was more like Sheogorath goin' "HEY! Ya' wanna kick some ass for me and save my place from being obliterated?" and CoC goin' "Hell yeah!"

EDIT: And who, outside of a bunch of flaming stereotypical militant feminists, gives a darn that in casual conversation regarding a gender-variable figure for whom the gender affects maybe five different pieces of coding that I defaulted to a specific gender which happens to coincide with my own and which coincides with the gender of the character that I created to fill in for the figure I was referring to?

Criminy.

These player characters may be females.

Anyway, I voted for the Nerevarine. A god-killer and the reincarnation of a powerful, ancient figure seems powerful to me.

The (canonical) Nevarine was everybody's [censored] - Alma, Vivec, Helseth and ultimately Azura. CoC was a glamorised errand boy who thought he was a god. The Academy Initiate, despite being just initiated into the Battlespire, managed to single handedly take on a horde of Daedra, braved their realms, decked himself out with a planetary defence system then went into Dagons back garden and handed his ass to him on a daedric plate. He wins.

Well I guess a lot of that has to do with what other things have been done with each character, which makes it very personal. My champion of cyrodiil also happens to be the arena grandmaster, arch-mage, fighters guild master, and gray fox. That is unprecedented, and leads me to believe MY champion of cyrodiil would beat my nevarine.. quite easily.

Interesting indeed.

By sheer body count of entities, I would have to say the Nerevarine. There's just so much death depending on how you play your character. If you throw mods into the mix, it never ends for the Nerevarine. Place "Rogues" into your Morrowind, and after level 20, it is almost understandable why you get jumped between 3 and 6 Dark Brotherhood assassins carrying legal scripts of execution.But even without the mods, you are killing tons of the very Dunmer you would prefer to keep alive for Azura. Just isn't in the fates.
I mean when you enter the Dark Brotherhood enclave, the body count is tremendous. Factor in beasts and then, wow. Same for The Master of Hunts. All those werewolves? Impressive considering their tenacity.

Though I do have a bit of a pause with the issue of God-killing. In essence, Almalexia gives you the means to spank her with the Sword of Nerevar, and Poet Vivec said she has weakened some. Every Dagoth you dispatch weakens Dagoth Ur, supposedly, especially his seven brothers, but the Tools of Kagrenac? Well, you see. Hircene just ditches after his spanking, with a finger at you "till next time", so I call "draw, with exception."

Though Almalexia did kill the king of the Kamal, the demons that sleep in Akavir during the winter and thaw to ravage during the summer.

I guess that would be the mod of mods, or the TES game of games. Take the Nerevarine to Akavir, as they mention in the streets of Cyrodiil. There, ALL of the creatures (save for the some of the demons perhaps and the Tang Mo, some) are IMMORTAL. The Tsaesci, Tosh Raka the Lord of Dragons, and most. That would level the playing field some knowing it is immortal after immortal.

Watching Oblivion, the character can amasse the same amount of titles and such as the Nerevarine, and almost the same body count. The Uderfrykte Matron is a far cry from her child at Thirsk. As for gods, remember, Sithis is older than the Daedra themselves, purportedly, and I imagine a force to recon with if they had thought to add that. Being the Arena champion in Oblivion is earned up until the end honestly. Spanking a person who...well, play it and you'll understand.

To note, she was still in her godly powerful years, and still needed the help of Wulfhart (despite being dead still).

Also, creatures may be immortal, but I highly doubt they are invincible. Just look at what happened to the two snakemen leaders after Reman III was assassinated, both were assassinated as well.

As for Sithis, that has no effect on the CoC. That'd be like suddenly gravity giving you powers. Sithis is a primordial force, not some god or what have you.

As for titles, the nerevarine can rack up more titles than the CoC, due to a lot more factions. Also, there were arena fights in MW, but they were done on certain events. Regardless, the nerevarine still defeated the greatest Redoran warrior in the pit, much more martially powerful than any gladiator scrub in Cyrodiil.

However, I'd still say the BS recruit is more powerful, because for one he was able to stop the invasion, without a bed to curl up on, was extremely deep in enemy territory, and fought the daedra in their homefield advantage, unhindered by the barriers of Nirn and without pathetic blessings of higher powers (though he did get help from the lesser daedra on occation). Also, he was the most (potentially) sarcastic and insulting person in all of TES.

Battlespire dude all the way.

You realize that it is implied that Diviath Fyr is the battlespire dude?
If it wasn't for him, Neraverine couldn't of used Kagranac's tools...
If Neraverine didn't use Kagranac's tool to kill the Heart of Lorkahn, Oblivion probably wouldsn't have hapened...

Diviath Fyr is Badass so Battlespire dude is probably badass.