I don't think so. The Altmer don't want anything to do with the experiment called CHIM. They don't want to see the tower. They scoff at the gift Lorkhan has bestowed to them, the possibility of knowing the truth and seeing the tower. They want to rule the wheel instead of undestand the tower.

I think the that is what the Dwemer hoped. They seem to have failed, though.

See, this makes me think of how the hell you can even achieve CHIM in the first place. I initially reject the idea of arrogance because to me that implies a bit of mental imbalance to some degree. I feel like some sort of degree of "level-headedness" or "rationality" if you can call it that is needed to process the the idea of the Tower and complete the Endeavor. Perhaps the best way I could explain how I see the "stuff that CHIM is made of" is benevolent arrogance...but that just makes no damn sense.

Actually, they RAIL against the very construction of the wheel!

They want it to return to raw materials.

The wood of the wheel wants to return to being a tree, rather than understand its purpose by seeing the world as the wheel.

CHIM seems to be bundled contradictions while at the same time understanding these contradictions. You need level-headedness and rationality to understand the truth, and that is zero-sum. You need the ability to know the truth and ignore it, contradicting the truth. You need the arrogance for that.

To weird, oops, that is what I meant.

That's the problem right there. Anything that takes force and trickery to achieve is automatically flawed.

CHIM vs UNIVERSE:


Universe:

"You are a collection of values, streaming into the infinite, the appearance of your existance is the result of your seperation from your other. Together, you are nothing, which means you shouldnt exist at all."


CHIM: "I have married my other (and had it murdered in secret)-- I AM, and you are a liar. Prove me wrong. The fact that I exist proves that you are wrong, For there is no other like me."

But is it though? Can't a trick be good? Isn't in many ways hope and truth just tricks to make ourselfs feel better and learn. Is that flawed. And the Altmer recieved a gift, a revelation that they did not want. Is it better to live in ignorance, as the Altmer want, or to rise and learn the truth as Lorkhan endeavoured and Talos and Vivec achieved.

With knowledge comes responsibility. The altmer dont want that. They want to be children. They want to play in the playground of the grey maybe, and not become parents and worlds of themselves.


In short, they have the PeterPan complex that Micheal Jackson has.... But in a mythical sense.

Ay, the Altmer know they are grown up, and they resent it. The Psijics are the worst. They set out the responsibilities, then do anything they can to avoid them.

Well hell, if you ignore something, then you really don't believe or accept it and THAT'S what's confusing me. I equate PURE arrogance to general stupidity by relation (if you can understand that) and I view it as a negative trait more than anything. My "benevolent" arrogance statement was trying to say that you need to have an EXTREME sense of individualism, but not be an idiot enough to not believe that you're not apart of the Everything.

For the record: I'm not trying to be an a-hole. I'm just REALLY trying to convey my point...if that's even possible.

The ones that achieved CHIM say not that they are part of everything, but that everything is part of them. This is pure arrogance but they are right, for they are know the truth. But they bend the truth to match their beliefs.

For the record: IT's cool. This is fun. Really pusing the limits of my TES knowledge.

Hmm, good point. But how can it be called arrogance if its the truth? I just see it as saying "I AM" as opposed to "I AM NOT," "choosing or aligning to" Anuiel as oppsed to Sithis, if I understand these souls correctly. You just reject one truth for another.

Not exactly---- One can be FULL of truth, and be arrogant. I know, I get confronted with that all the time. Arrogance comes from not being respectful, mostly.

How can it be called the truth when arrogance can change it? To say "I AM NOT" you first must say "I AM", standing where Anuiel clashes with Sithis, where unstoppable change clashes with immovable stasis. Accept change so you can exist, while accepting stasis so you know the truth. You must embrace two contradicting truths at the same time, thus CHIM is the ultimate contradiction. That is why Talos and Vivec are both selfless and arrogant at the same time.

Edit: I got to stop reading MK. I am becoming unnecessarily obtuse. Sorry. I'm worried that this will carry over to other threads.

So... Vivec is Morpheus and Talos is Neo? Alright. Got it.

Edit: Kidding. Seriously. It's a fascinating concept, but boggling. I'm still somewhat trying to figure out the dynamics of the universe, but it seems like just so much he said/she said.

True. But arrogance is essentially unwarranted pride. How can you call knowing "the truth" of existence arrogant? I'd feel pretty good too if I figured out everything is me. I'd piss on everything and tell everyone to go to hell too :celebration:

Arrogance is more to do with "I am right, and I dont care what you you THINK, because I KNOW what the answer is, and I can prove it!"

I get this problem often, because I have an innate intolerance for treating what somebody 'Feels' to be true with the same reverence as what can be proven to be true. It is my view that somebody can FEEL they are the king of Kashmir, but unless they have a birth certificate to back it up, that doesn't amount to much, and I am not opposed to calling somebody down on it either.

Thus, I often get labeled as "An arrogant bastard." I have come to accept this as truth, given the empirical nature of the statement, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogance


So, I can tell you on good authority that being Arrogant, does not automatically make you "Wrong"--- It just makes you unlikeable.

Hmm, fair enough, I suppose. I guess I'll concede on that argument, lol.

I'm tired right now. I'll try to argue a point to the death some other time.

Who says anything about CHIM? CHIM is only a method. Note how it is part of a greater list in the Loveletter. The Altmer do want ascendence, have witnessed ascendence, they just want something different from it.

What would that "something different' be?

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta_nu-mantia.shtml#5

On the subject of CHIM versus Zero-Sum: from what I can tell, with the exception of misguided metaphysicists and the occassional nihilist group, Zero-Sum is not as much a goal as it is a mistake made on the path to achieving CHIM or some similar ascendence. See the Dwemer.

I disagree with that. Hell, you have to know what CHIM is first and in turn the Psijic Endeavor. There was some person who was a master at both alteration and mysticism (if I'm correct) and because both schools roughly state that the world is essentially fake and pliable, he processed this in his head and Zero-Summed out.

Also, an important point I always keep in my head is that essentialy CHIM is seeing the Tower and then saying "I AM." Zero-Sum is seeing the Tower then saying "I AM NOT." Zero Sum is merely more popular and well known mainly and merely because it makes more sense.

edit: In essence, you basically have to be an arrogant and/or insightful bastard to sit there and "realize" that everything is you instead of you being everything. The levelheaded, sensible person achieves Zero-Sum essentially because it's the "sensible" conclusion; the extreme individual achieves CHIM... essentially because he's a arrogant dike.

This may be a stupid question, but does the Moth Priest's interest in zero-sum have anything to do with Jyggalag? Because there seem to be many similarities between the group's use of the Elder Scrolls, and Jyggalag's famous future determining equation.

And what makes Shezarr better then everyone else? One that thinks himself superior is not right. One that can't gain an audience without being an ass and scoundrel is always a lesser being.

Shezarr was a fool and a dictator.



That's their choice. Shezarr was just as immature forcing it down their throats as they were denying it.

The true winner in they mythic sense is the being who saw the tower, but didn't tell anyone else about it.