Shezarr is better than the others, because he saw a way to improve himself, he took it. He is worse than the others because he tryed to force others to improve themselves as well. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and Lorkhan had good intentions. But I guess we see his actions differently. I am man, you are mer.

That is why he failed

No the true winner is the being who saw the tower, and opened the path for others, but didn't force it upon them. So basically Vivec. He saw the tower, and revealed it's nature. But he did not force anyone who did not want to see it to see it (as Lorkhan did) and he made it so those who do want to see have an easier time.

The ignorant know not what's best for them. The moral prerogative of all with true knowledge is to inform and/or force those lacking knowledge to accept it and gain enlightenment.

I don't really see the competition here.

@saxbass: Vivec didn't "win", man, he just did it for the epic lulz. Seriously.

@946000: An interesting point of view, though I don't see anything in the lore that seems to confirm it. But then, I'm not the most professed loremaster on the forums, by far, and MK/Vehk is nowhere to be found. So...well, I garnered my point of view from reading about the Dwemer, those Moth Priest documents that we've been talking about, and (most importantly) from MK's comments on the Word Roundup thread (which, due to the method in which I'm posting, I can't really quote right now -- grrr....). What's your backup?

Oh, I know. I was just using Mortazo's phrase "they mythic sense is the being who saw the tower, but didn't tell anyone else about it." and expounding upon it.

I disagree. You can allow someone to live in ignorance, if they are not advanced enough to fully comprehend the topic. This prevents a form of stupidity.


Knowledge without wisdom is folly.


The moral imperative therefore, is to cultivate wisdom, and knowledge will flow naturally. The lessons are intended to cultivate wisdom, not knowledge.

Probably from the same Moth priest documents (can't really remember them right now. Will probably edit in), http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml, whatever the hell that freakin' document is that talks about that mage who was a higher-up in some magickal society, and I think that's mainly it, besides a few documents that slightly mention CHIM (it's really too many, but if i find specifics, will try to edit in).

Concerning the Dwemer, I still battle with what TRULY happened to them. I recall seeing a MK post (or someone refer to one) that stated that they "became" Anumidium and while I can believe that to some obscure degree, I find the text that states that they were displaced to Oblivion makes much more sense. I feel they just "became" a tower, but that makes crap sense.... I had a better past theory about that, but I'm so stupid I forgot it...or just remembered it too well. It's complicated.

CHIM itself "constantly distorts itself;" essentially, people don't know what the hell it is. As someone earlier stated, Zero-Sum is arguably the pinnacle of enlightenment, and I mostly believe this because it is the "common" conclusion; if someone tells you that everything is essentially the same thing and you therefore have no individuality, then the "logical" solution is to say "I AM NOT." CHIM is so rarely acheived because, like stated, it "constantly distorts itself." How the hell can you say "I AM" when "obviously" you "AM NOT?" CHIM distorts itself because it's so illogical.

Basically, only several TRULY know about CHIM specifically and fewer have ACHIEVED it after the Endeavor, which itself is so obscured to people. I used to think Zero Sum was a mistake too. Those who have actually strived for it have shown me otherwise. I also think personal character comes into play as well as knowledge.

Huh? Where? I'm sorry, I've been sick and not really followed the thread, but from what I gather, most people have only been talking about the Psijic Endeavour. Zero-Sum, as portrayed in http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/sporedream.shtml, has the moth priest go quite mad and then evaporate when he realises that everything has its origin in nothing. His musings become transcribed into sheet music, which, when played, causes people to evaporate in the symphony's "radial madness".

This sounds like dangerous nihilistic philosophising and an unfortunate accident. Even the name, zero-sum, doesn't make it sound particularly appealing. It means: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/zero-sum (z?r'ō-sŭm', zē'rō-)
adj. Of or relating to a situation in which a gain is offset by an equal loss
". . .under the zero-sum budgeting system that governs federal spending, the money for spinal research is likely to be deducted from some other research account.

"The first brush of Anu and Padomay" makes such judgements rather irrelevant.

The ends seriously do justify the means.

The disappearance of Artaeum? We don't know what that was about at all.


I thought you said you didn't agree with http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/skelm.shtml


Again, who are these people who "strive" for Zero Sum. I AM a part of the collective of the http://www.myspace.com/ yet I AM a unique personality within that collection of consciousnesses for I ARE ALL WE, and I AM(still an individual).

Zero Sum is exactly not a desirable state (for most). It's dangerous. Heck, the "Eat the Dreamer" fragment plainly states that what the Moth Priest did was information that was stored to be a weapon (and a sharp one at that). The Moth Priest failed, plain and simple because he lacked one key ingredient.
"At its simplest, the state of chim provides an escape from all known laws of the divine worlds and the corruptions of the black sea of Oblivion. It is a return to the first brush of Anu-Padomay, where stasis and change created possibility. Moreso, it the essence needed to hold that 'dawning' together without disaster. One that knows CHIM observes the Tower without fear. Moreso: he resides within.
- Vehk's Teachings

What the Moth Priest did was ride alongside a realization but did not have the essence (CHIM) to hold it. The result: zap. And that text also says something very important about CHIM: It's something you need, not something you need to achieve. Basically, CHIM is a quality someone has or has not. CHIM is not illogical or incomprehensible, it is actually a very simple concept once you realize what it is. One question to pursue what CHIM means is asking the following question: "Who is not governed by the laws of the divine worlds or Oblivion?" or: "Who can make his own decisions?"

So Lorkhan wanted us to be dikes to people to achieve ascendence? Got it.

So moth priests are mad scientists playing with fire and not self-sacrificing explorers?

At the very least, what is the public face of those activities?

Like I said, I regard Zero-Sum as the "pinnacle" of enlightenment because it technically IS learning what the world really is. Looking at it as positive or negative is subjective in my opinion. My "I AM" and "I AM NOT' statements were made to show that I feel what you do after the Endeavor only depends on you really.

The mage-who-was-a-master-of-Mysticism-and-Alteration guy I meantioned was a levelheaded individual and with knowledge of both of these schools, which together roughly state that the world is nothing, he achieved Zero-Sum and therefore evaporated. I don't recall seeing anywhere that he went insane or flipped out or anything like that. In the end, I feel he just sat there and went "I AM NOT." Simple as that.

Do the moth priests know how to get CHIM or at least what it is?

On a side note, I had a dream that I achieved CHIM.

Oh, Moth Priests have their purpose (Keeping the Elder Scrolls tidy and a bunch of other things), this one just had the (right) realization without the stature to deal with it. Poor chap. I'd compare it to the image of having all the world's knowledge put into your head within a second without the brain capacity to process and store the information. You just snap out of it.

But they definately sacrifice for knowledge: they read and serve their Emperor and go blind. With no more than that I always felt that it was a goal. An Altmer at least would appreciate it.

Although it does seem rather frightening in a cult that honors ancestors to be taken out of the loop for good.

I was mostly joking with that statement.

I'd have to say no.

There is a level of emotional maturity needed to achieve the final sub gradient. If you act superior and claim you know a group of people better then they know themselves you've become too selfish and too aggressive to have the calm needed to achieve it. Its okay to be selfish, but tis not okay to force yourself on others. That is why Shezarr failed.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Moth Priests as we currently know them - and see them in that monastery in Cyrodiil - do not have CHIM. Some of them might know about it though, they're pretty smart, Nu-Hatta seems like a guy who could at least say a few things about it.
You instead, have CHIM. Achieving isn't the point, as I said, it's a quality that sets you apart from others. Whether you know of CHIM or how it works is irrelevant to "having" CHIM. I could instantly show you a whole bunch of people who have CHIM but probably never heard the word - but that would be no fun. I'd like to direct you to the two questions I asked. Thinking about them might yield some more insight.

The only thing this could possibly be is http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/sporedream.shtml, which features a moth priest, not a "mage-who-was-a-master-of-Mysticism-and-Alteration guy ". He quite clearly goes mad, considering himself to come from the drool of an equally mad Dragon God, and ending on the note that dimesion is no different to dementia. When the transcribed music of this spore dream was played, everyone "in the symphony's radial madness, was vaporized by adjacentia".

There is http://search.freefind.com/find.html?oq=zero+sum&id=72791987&pageid=r&_charset_=UTF-8&bcd=%C3%B7&scs=1&query=%22zero+sum%22&Find=Search&mode=ALL&search=all that explores zero-sum.

THAT statement is what was resonating in the back of my head when I was making those "benevolent arrogance" statements earlier. Pure arrogance, in my eyes, shows immaturity. You'd have to have rationality to a greater extent to PROPERLY process CHIM is what I was getting at.

I have to reevaluate all that crap in my head again now... :banghead:

Well as Nalion said, CHIM is the state of mind needed to reach the final subgradient, not the actual endeavor/goal itself.

That seems to be a practical roadblock, but the rights of others don't really matter if you are the only one that truly exists. Mythopeia can't force you to make nice if you are standing at its head.

Just saying I is a better way of going about it.

I know there was a Mage person who achieved Zero Sum. I didn't just make that up. It's in SOME text somewhere; I may just be describing it wrong.