It wasn't my intent to twist your words, I was simply trying to find an adequate example to illustrate my point. I certainly apologize if it came out that way.

That's the thing, though. I don't see how a spaceship being already in the game is relevant to more necessarily being there. Remember, I take this same view with all DLC I don't own (there just doesn't happen to be a "Is Point Lookout Canon?" thread.) I can't see Alaska from anywhere in DC, and there isn't already a conveniently-placed artifact that's relevant to Operation: Anchorage in Fallout 3's base game. If I haven't played Operation:Anchorage yet, is that to say some other guy found that simulation and ran through it, in my game? Does the existence of a pre-existing location relevant to that DLC make it more, or less canon, then?

Also, if MZ is not likely to ever be relevant again - how is it's status as canon relevant?

(And I don't want to give the wrong impression, here - it's not like I consider this to be that big of a deal. I just enjoy the debate...)

No, it ruins the Fallout lore.

I'm starting to think we'll never get to a final agreement, since You seem to put a lot more importance on the personal narrative of the character than I do. Anyway, the point of pointing out the pre-existing location is that gamesas has a habit of putting in pre-existing locations that they later use for DLC's. Just look at the Theives Den (and the cave under Castle Anvil) or the Orrery door in the Arcane University.


Content released by bethesda is canon until Beth denounces it. Fallout is beth's... oh wait, that word I want to use is censored, damn you censor filter!

That's because, for me at least, it's exactly that importance of the personal narrative of my character, and the degree of control I have over that narrative, which makes an ostensibly open-world roleplaying game like Fallout 3 so compelling in the first place. It's that what occurs in your game can be so drastically different in my game, or not happen at all (and vice versa) which makes this sort of game so special. Anything which diminishes this ability to decide my own narrative arc within the confines of the skeletal structure of the overall narrative, while not necessarily being the end of the world, is still not exactly a step in the right direction, as I see.

Take, for example, Assassin's Creed 2. I thought it was a great and highly-polished game, and even quite immersive in it's own right. But it's a linear narrative. My Ezio is no different (beyond maybe what colors he dies his clothes and what weapons he uses) than anyone else's Ezio. Personal choice and the ability to dictate the direction of the narrative is not one of that game's selling points (which, of course, doesn't make it "worse," but just a different approach.) That AC2 also features DLC. Now, with that game, I'm sure it's all considered to be "canon." And I see no paradox, there. Because rather than being what I have decided to use or not use in constructing the narrative that is relevant to my experience within the game, it's still a linear story where personal input does not radically alter the direction of the narrative. If I haven't downloaded or played a particular DLC in that game, it's more akin to a series of books and I just haven't read one of them. (ie, it all "still happened," but I just haven't read that one, yet.)

But with something like Fallout 3, I feel that approach goes against the very grain upon which the game is founded. If personal choice is one of the foundations upon which the game is designed - for my character to be as unique, and my experience to be as personal, as possible - then "it still happened even if you haven't experience it yet" diminishes my ability to decide for myself what my experience has been. If anything, we're supposed to be opening up that aspect and expanding upon - to allow the player's experience to be as unique, personal, and customized to their choices as possible.

Mucking around in canon - while not the end of the world - is taking a step backwards from that very concept. When instead we should be pushing the envelope and allowing greater degrees of control over our characters' experience. Nailing elements down as "canon" simply takes away from that choice. Even if objectively we could define canon in this regard, I still don't see how I can subjectively view it as a good thing. (And quite frankly, looking at it from that angle - I don't see how anyone could be particularly happy with a concept that minimizes - or removes entirely - one's own input on what "happens" in their own game.)

Its canon, the same alien tech was found in fallout 1 and 2. and to anyone who dislikes fallout 3, your everything that the enclave stands for, so go die.

Aliens are simply part of the 50's genre sci fi that Fallout is based on. Aliens have always been amongst the background radiation and are the ultimate boogeyman. For instance... no one knows who dropped the first Nuke... how do we know it wasn't the Aliens? All the more reason to shoot them repeatedly.

Aliens represent both the greatest threat to humanity as well as our salvation (another common theme in 50's Sci-Fi). Even if the aliens are here to wipe us out they still have the technology we need to solve the problem that led to the Resource War... energy. Think about it... the Aliens got here in their ship. Whether they have faster than light (FTL) drives or were frozen for thousands of years as their ship traveled across the vast distances between here and their home, the power source is reliable and is proven to move them from point A to B. So what? In broad strokes... this energy source would give the holder the power to control the world... If the Enclave got a hold of it they could revisit the rumored plan to leave Earth for another planet. Of course, with this energy source they could wipe out all mutants and all mutated life and start over.

Some might see Aliens as a threat to the Fallout way of life... sorry I couldn't resist. I for one welcome it as one more layer to explore in the Fallout genre. We should welcome them in the spirit of friendship that befits Fallout, namely, just long enough for the snipers to get into position.

Not everything from 1950's Sci fi has to be a big part of Fallout. That is why they are just easter eggs in the originals. They are jokes. Second we do know aliens did not start it! The into to Fallout 2 says what caused the great war. "The end of the world occurred pretty much as we predicted. To many humans not enough space or resources to go around. The details are trivial and pointless, the reasons as alway purely human ones." I don't want Fallout to become Fallout Resistance. The idea of Aliens becoming the next big bad guy in fallout makes me violently ill and super angry.

I agree with you that not all 50's scifi is fodder for the Fallout genre except as eggs. And there is no doubt that the former encounters of the third kind in previous Fallout's were both oblong and spheroid. Mothership Zeta, however, demonstrates that the egg has hatched.

While it's possible Aliens will be the next Big Bad-E to cream, I doubt it. Mothership Zeta only is a tickler. I suspect the folks at Bethesda have other more subtle plot lines in mind.

As for being violently ill and super angry all I can say is a Rad-Away pack or two and a few thousand rounds of AP in the minigun should help.

See ya in the Wasteland.

I agree that it's not likely that the aliens will become the next big bad guy on the block but I don't want anymore alien things. I don't want to find out in FO4 that the Enclave or Commonwealth are in bed with Aliens or any thing like that.

The point of the thread is to debate if it canon or not. Its not because it brings up the question "did aliens start the great war." Fallout makes it clear that man alone caused it. That's what makes fallout so great. It's man kind rebuilding from it's biggest mistake. Adding aliens just messes with that.

If Aliens are now Canon why not Star Trek, Dr.Who and Godzilla?

But anyways I am just repeating myself. It's kinda like beating a dead horse. Everything that has been said as been said.

Anyways see ya in the Wasteland as well.

It's canon. Bethesda published MZ. If you want to go radical and say that only Ron Perlman has the right to declare what's canon, that's fine. That's great. That's actually preferable. Really! But gamesas owns Fallout, so the majority of us will say that what they say goes. Although I'll accept any possible excuse to persist that the aliens did NOT start the War, I don't mind more alien involvement in the series aside from Easter eggs. (It's funny how the War can be capitalized. I suppose that the term couldn't easily refer to a specific event in the Wasteland so much as it would refer to the general state of things, so the word itself can be sticky-noted to that event.)

I voted "Take Me To Your Leader", simply because I had absolutely no reason to want to see your leader.

Again, just saying, ownership of the franchise does not automatically means that everything that happens ingame, or DLC, is consider official canon. Its all on the player's choice if the even happen to them or not in their story, but not to the point that is happens to all buyers players.

You make a great point. The Fallout series is based on the results of the seeds humanity has sewn for itself. The wasteland is humanity's karma. Introducing outside forces into this does fundamentally diverge from the original point. That is probably why Bethesda made MZ as a one-off rather than part of the main storyline. This way they can field test the concept on the players... not too different than the Enclave testing FEV toxins on muties. I would point out that this is a common and frequently used technique in other Scifi storylines... people like the bounty hunter... keep him, people hate the amphibious sidekick...make him a Senator. Anyway, you get the point. The more I think of it I am in favor of limiting aliens to one offs like MZ if only to keep everyone's collective gaze on the wasteland that was born of human arrogance and greed.

If you bring the Nuka Cola I'll bring the iguanas on a stick.

Aliens have been around in Fallout before.

So why is this such a big deal? I really don't get it.

Okay, Mothership Zeta is one huge side-track from anything else in Fallout 3. There are references and open ended suggestions on Mothership Zeta, including to other downloadable content and past events (i.e., during/before 2077). There is not one single bit of evidence that the aliens did anything other than investigate Earth and life forms on Earth, both before and after the war leading up to Fallout 3. Is it possible there was some sort of alien influence in the events? I find that unlikely. As many have pointed out, that would go against the overall moral and theme of the Fallout universe. That in itself does not seem to me to be grounds to completely write off Mothership Zeta as some huge and irrelevant Easter Egg.

There are many things in the other Fallouts screaming aliens, which seem to be only brought up as either defenitive proof that all aliens are Easter Eggs or all aliens are canon. Why is it not possible that they are both? The weapons and tech obtained from the alien encounters give the respective wanderers an edge over the competition, and are great to use. The fact that the weapons are not widespread seems further proof that the aliens were merely an investigative presence on Earth and had no hand in the events that unfolded.

As far as canon only being what happens to your character... I can't really swallow that. I can see the opinion and the point of view, and I do respect it; however, that would greatly limit the scope of the game. Lets say you never run into a raider in the Fallout universe (bear with me here, I know that would be nearly impossible, if not technically impossible). Does that mean raiders cannot possibly be canon? What about references to those raiders, what would those then be? And yes, this directly relates to the aliens, which are mentioned in various other forms throughout the Fallout universe.

Just because you don't like it, or you don't like what it means, doesn't invalidate it or remove it from canon. It really isn't an important part of the Fallout universe anyway. Almost, if not all, alien encounters have been designed as almost a joke of sorts at the beliefs being held by people of the 1950's (which is around the time the whole alien abduction phenomenon in popular culture began to appear). There are lots of jokes and parodies in the Fallout universe, which is one the things that makes the games so great. It isn't all seriousness all the time. But, I don't want every single joke written off as not being canon, just because it may suggest that something happened going against the overall moral or theme of the story.

When it comes down to it... No, I wouldn't want to see the alien role in the Fallout universe expanded beyond the scope of any previous Fallout game (including #3). However, if there is another alien encounter in the upcoming Fallout game, it would not upset or disappoint me in the least (as long as it is along the lines of what has been seen in other alien encounters, including Mothership Zeta). If aliens became a major protagonist (I hope I spelled and used that right, my dictionary seems to have walked off at this point), then I would be disappointed. The part of the aliens should be more along the lines of a joke, even though I believe it should also be included in canon.

This was discussed recently in the Elder Scrolls forums. The Guild quest lines would require very different people, but are all playable to the character. So, canonically, were they all done by the same person? It was decided, essentially, that they were all done, but by different people.

I think that, since there's no way to actually know what the Vault Dweller, Chosen One, and Lone Wanderer did, most everything must be considered canon.\

This is the difference between stuff like Star Wars' canon and video game canon -- with video games, it's hard to tell what is canon.

Still in the limitation of canon via toon, but not as the overall game ie the Main Quest. There a reason there wasn't any indication of any info regarding how the PC did in the Guild/Faction in Daggerfall to Morrowind and Morrowind to Oblivion. Even with this in mind, this is a DLC we are talking about. Its extras and made to for the fun/make money off of it. Unless the DLC is a Expansion or a "Fix" that was suppose to exist, then its immediately deem not canon in retrospect to the overall game's Main Quest itself.


There was a http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vault_Dweller%27s_memoirs and many details in Fallout 2 about it. If I recall correctly, this piss off alot of people who played their Vault Dweller differently then it was presented in Fallout 2 (he was a saint that kill the last boss). The Chosen One, luckily, got away to becoming an anonymous figure (anyone can be this person). The Lone Wanderer, well, unless ya use the "Fix" DLC, he/she dead either way.

In Fallout 2, as one levels up, one also sees LOTS of encounters with aliens, floaters, and occasionally, wannimangos.
These were usually tied to certain geographic areas on the map.

Buck Rogers was also quite big in the 50's and fits in nicely here.
He's probably the model for Captain Cosmos.
This comic strip began around 1929 or so, and is worth a look see for any Sci Fi fan.

MZ to me is a welcome explanion to the Fallout universe.
A gateway to new mods as well

I voted yes.
I have played Fallout 1, 2, and Fallout Tactics, as well as Fallout 3.

Why is it immediately deemed not canon? Because it's DLC? Unless Beth states that DLC isn't canon, then why don't we just treat it all as if it were part of the original game? I really don't see your reasoning.

Same reason all the other extras that exist on other games they made. Its just extra and not truly relevant to the overall Main Quest of the Main Game, not to mention it may or may not conflict with ALL players and their different choices ingame. Morrowind-wise, the PC did not raid Firemoth, own both set of Adamantium Armors and LeFemm Armor, nor obtain the Master Index and/or the Adamantium Helm of Tohan. Same goes with Oblivion. The PC did not became a Paladin, a Vampire with its own lair, a leader of a Pirate, or own a horse with Armor. Its ridiculous to just say that just because Beth own it means its canon.

Why does this bother people all mothership zeta doesn't really affect the story the most it does is really give the LW some new weapons and memories

how? Beth owns it. Fallout is theres to do with as they please. THis seems like an excuse to just deny something exists within gamesas's property.

Yes they own the franchise, but it does not automatically means that everything they release or any event ingame is truly canon. I put this in a different perspective. When Interplay own Fallout, many of nonsenseable event found ingame from stumbling into TARDIS or finding a whale carcass in the middle of a desert to finding a Diner full of Fallout 1 characters, Dogmeat, and Mel Gibson isn't really taken serious into the series as they are seen as Easter Eggs and can be deem noncanon because they are not really there to enhance or contribute to the overall Main Quest.

Same goes with many of the Elder Scroll addons. Cut and paste from previous post:


This can goes as far as saying that the PC becoming a Vampire or Werebeast isn't canon because there are many other players that does not like the idea that their toon become such a monster and if someone deem this as canon, it would piss them right off.

IIRC I've not said anything on this before but....

It is Canon, until its stated that its not. I wish it were not canon (I think Zeta really only fits into fallout in the same sense that the Guardian portal and bridge of death do, as an extended joke) and hope that it gets specifically excluded in the future.

I disagree. It is in canon limbo currently. Events are not canon until referred to in future games. There is no canon anything in regard to Fallout 3. One can assume The Lone Wanderer encountered Project Purity but what he did with it or what he did with any other faction or character is to be determined.

If someone in Fallout 4 talks about Wanderer's time on a UFO or if the event of MZ are otherwise referenced then it is canon. Thus MZ will likely either become canon or forever remain in canon limbo, I doubt Bethesda is, if they decide it is not canon, going to come out and say "No, the events of MZ never happened," more likely they will just leave their reality up to each individual player.

"Canon Limbo"

Soppose MZ itself remains in the Canon Limbo but the aliens existing in the FO universe turn out to be canon. As in MZ may or may not have ever happened (which makes sense: I only sent a couple characters 'up there' while others never even visited the crash site) but the fact that the crash site was there as well as the alien blaster independant from the DLC indicates that the aliens themselves are canon just as the existence of Project Purity is also canon regardless of whether it gets jacked by the Enclave, used to eradicate mutants or turned into this center for free pure water for the whole capitol wasteland. The Broken Steel DLC doesn't have to happen either it is just easier to accept than the spaceship full of insane aliens and their wicked robots and experiments.