Yeah, but the other half is always ugly.

Good you guys can all argue with hero now. Try telling him about how cl is not evil.

Im still going with this

NCR = rockin in a free world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQccK0F1_iY

I don't argue that they don't have some evil tendencies and I definately don't think they are perfect. What I argue for, is that the NCR also has evil tendencies and are far from perfect. In fact all of the factiosn fit that category. It's just a matter of choosing the lesser of evils, and thats where it becomes subjective.

Ashur was complex, his goal was to restart industry, but he knows he has to commit terrible deeds to achieve that. In fact if it weren't for having slaves he'd probably be considered a "Good" character, even though his actions show he wishes he did not need to resort to slavery. He's polite, honest, a loving father, not a hypocrite and has a grand vision, on the other hand, he condones slavery, assosiates with raiders and allows them to abuse slaves.

He's complicated, dispicable, yet likable. And a complete badass, he kicked raider ass to get where he is, I bet that skull crotch-pad on his armor is there to fit his massive stones because they don't fit in normal power armor.

Compare him to Caesar and the petulent child doesn't hold a candle to him.

Ah the usual response I see.

The NCR compares themselves to old world values, which until WW2 was our world, and to some extent the Legion does the same, it's just differant time periods. So we can compare the Legion to any point in history until the 1950's and still technicaly be in the Fallout universe. And even the Third Reich and the USSR are more appealing societies compared to CL, they had slavery (Jews and Ukrainians), were cults of personality and cruel had punishments, but they treated women like human beings, used technology. The worst dictatorships prior to 1950 would see CL as a bunch of savage barbarians to be wiped out.

If you don't want real life comparisons, because if we could your arguments couldn't hold water, then let me ask you this, what society outside of CL and the Omertas (allies of CL) in the Mojave treat women like brahmin, forbay the use of advanced technology, have cruel exectuions, supports slavery and runs like a cult? None, other than a few tribes the rest of the Fallout world in the western frontier sees that as either stupid or evil, that's why CL cannot get anyone to ally with them other than backward tribes which they betray in the end. The Mojave has it's own set morals, the Legion is a foreign band of raiders and their views are in the minority, a bunch of nukes doesn't equal the destruction of values. The only good quality they have is a secure society that will continue humanity no matter the cost, but even that's up for debate because CL cannot operate without Caesar, because he designed it that way, it's his ultimate power fantasy. Their leaders egomania is going to be their downfall.

I know I said I'd stop derailing the thread, but everyone else has without me. So why the hell not?

Progress in the form of an older more hollowed out shell, at least the Americans didn't have Emporer Caligula or Nero, two completely corrupt Roman Emporers who's actions are repulsive regardless of the times.

Virtually the same could be said of the NCR, minus the advanced tech and "treating women like brahmin" (lolz wut?). The difference is being forthcoming with your intentions. The NCR doesn't outright say they support slavery, but once you have been absorbed by them, they care little for your safety. Only more power, more land and more wealth. Where they beat the Legion at is successfully fooling people into thinking they have been saved by the NCR, when in truth, they are almost like slaves. As for the cult aspect, the NCR is very much guilty of promoting by who you know and not by how your perfom. The incompetent become leaders while, the lower soldiers suffer. Chief Hanlon is the only exception to this.

So what your saying is that having to pay taxes makes you a slave? Well then I guess we're all slaves then. Primm is well protected by the NCR if they have the supplies in their ending so not caring about saftey is debunked, they only ditch it because they cannot defend it in certain endings. As for promotions for knowing Kimball, corruption does not equal a cult of personality, only incompetance and foolishness. The Powder Gangers were scum being put to work as part of a sentance, not slavery no matter what the whiney murderers say. And when has the NCR crucified someone, or lit them ablaze and toss them off a cliff, or burn someone alive as a punishment or force them to fight in an arena? The answer, NEVER! The only point you have is that their goals are more orientated to accumulating more power, spreading their ideals and helping people comes second to that.

Your Legion bias is showing in your poorly written argument. :disguise:

Hahaha too funny. The same could be said for you. Your not exactly beaming with neutrality yourself.

It's really a matter of perspective. The only thing that really annoys me about NCR supporters, is that they refuse to see their flaws, as well as their merits. I don't really care who you think is better, but know that none are perfect. Thats the idea in Fallout, at least in New Vegas.

If I annoy you I don't know why, I'll admit the higher ups are pretty damn incompetant, supplies are thin and they aren't just in the Mojave to spread democracy, but they happen to be a lighter shade of grey. I never said that the NCR is perfect, all the Factions are shades of grey, except the Enclave and the Legion, they're practically black when it comes to morality shades.

The only merits the Legion has is safety and security, though the way Caesar made the Legion it seems that's not going to be the case. The NCR is an attempt to regain what was lost and they have aquired many assets the old world had.

Is there any faction that's in for the people?
NCR cares about money
Legion cares about power
House cares about isolation and his own power
Yes Man cares about all the above getting nothing.

I didn't specifically say you, but this is the first time I've personally seen you declare their flaws. Just in general, most NCR supporters hink they are the white knights of the mojave. I accept a different view, just not when its completely clouded.

The Roman Empire might be older, but it certainly stood the test of time... can't say the same for America or democracy in general. And when I say hollow, I mean that by how the NCR is rebuilding society on the rotting corpse of the new world. While the legion is building a foundation that will stand the test of time while being self-sufficient. I shouldn't have to remind you that they are still a work in progress.

A reason why Caesar chooses to emulate the Roman Empire is because of how different it is compared to anything people have seen.

I think the Followers genuinely care about the people. Alas they neither have the manpower nor resrources to protect the people, let alone prosper.

The quest "Return to Sender" and Chief Hanlon make me think a bit about NCR, its Mojave campaign and its consequences... I can see a lot of similarities between NCR and the United States. Firstly, the quick expansion NCR is undergoing mirrors the 19th century run for the west. Secondly, all the talk about democracy, freedom and order that makes the idealogy justifying their actions. Thidly, economic/strategic objectives that drive their expansion: Hoover Dam is like the oil reserves of the Middle East. Finally, the disconnection between those who are on the thick of situation (NCR forces on the Mojave) and those in the central areas of the nation (the Senate, military and common folk in the core cities of the NCR): they simply don't care or don't know much about what really goes on on the frontier.

Chief Hanlon says this campaign will be the death of the NCR. It's overextending its armed forces, barely being able to protect the newly annexed regions, while being ripped off by Mr. House and the Three Families. The lure of Hoover Dam and the political prestige it's conquest would bring are probably what's filling the heads of politicians in Shady Sands. Of course, more territories mean more power, more money, taxes and soldiers to expand further.

It's naive to think it's all about ideals or good intentions or that people make war to defend what they believe in. A cold, rational anolysis will show that those are secondary to economic and strategic motivations.

Agreed. The Followers are my favorite faction in FNV. But maybe if they were to govern people things would change (for the worse)

Aloke, you are getting dangerously close in post #90 to saying the United States is stealing oil from the middle east. Don t do that.....

It will cause a political type argument which is not welcome on these forms. If you want to talk United States stealing oil, feel free to pm me. I ll give you a little history lesson......

Well, maybe I didn't express myself well. I didn't mean NCR was stealing Hoover Dam (or anologically the US stealing the ME oil). It's about a nation's self-interest. HD is desirable for the NCR because it brings great benefits: eletricity, water and political power. So, it's the NCR own best interest to secure HD for themselves (or even share it with NV since they only take 5% of its output). I didn't mean to say the US did the same in Iraq (which I don't believe BTW), but the invasion had more behind it than simply "free the iraqui people and destroy the WMD". Saddan was in a position he could use his oil reserves as political leverage and was also a focus of political instability in the region, so it was benficial to the interests of the US (and to some extent everybody else) to remove him from power. Not to seize the oil reserves, but to ensure they wouldn't be used to back Saddan's actions and/or cause economic instability (since oil is one of the main commodities around).

I like FO so much because it allows us to reflect on real world situations. I know political discussions usually degrade to an exchange of insults, but I think they're good to make people think once in a while.

I have seen it writen more than once on here, so I thought that was what you were aiming at. NCR is supposed to be a lot like the modern day free world. Comparisons are sure to be made, but we have to be careful on how much we compare. Its a thin line with the NCR, and following form rules. I got a thread locked before, because someone said the United States was stealing oil, and the NCR was exploiting Hoover dam. Its real hard not to counter oil stealing theories. I know the NCR are there for Hoover Dam.

Its when real world United States stories are told (right or wrong) that things could get out of hand and a thread locked.

Most people in the U.S. are fully aware of all the situations at hand. Though they see them it in different ways. Talk of any of it on here will just get already pissed off people on even more pissed.

End result will be a locked thread.

As of late I have tried to stop useing the U.S., and now say "free world." When talking NCR. Its more vauge that way.

Nope

Poor guy. Got all hopped up on self-righteousness that you started comparing the real, modern world and it's morals to a fictional world, with it's own set of rules and moral code. It's a pretty common problem around here so I won't hold it against you. :wink_smile:

Yeah, I think I d take Caeser over Hitler. Now Stalin and Caeser are about tied in my book. Stalin had success in defending Russia.

Caeser is more in touch with reality than Hitler was.
Hitler got so out of touch with the reality of things that you couldn t base a fictional character on him, because no one would believe it.
A lot of his military leaders said attacking Russia would be a bad move, but Hitler ordered it anyway. They were already taking on the French resistance, and the British on on multiple fronts. Other countries had resistance fighters Germany did not have fully under control as well, and the United States was getting closer and closer to getting involved. He lead his army into a mass slaughter in a war that they were winning. They took a lot of men with them, but a mass slaughter none the less.

Ceaser at least seems to respect the NCRs capabilities.

Aw jeez, Caesar was on the receiving end of a Godwin. :facepalm:

Manifest Destiny.

It's the same reason the United States spread from wherever the hell Columbus landed to the other side of the country.

This is also why I respect Hanlon. He understands the limits of the NCR and knows the power of what they face. He's a realist and is not clouded by propaganda. He is, in my mind, the best leader in the NCR.