Must-haves in Skyrim! : V - Skyrim

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:45 pm

I'd have to say I agree with Velorien for the most part. :yes: The time thing, as good as an observation as it is, It's kind of... too much. :shrug: I mean seriously, if you were to play the game with the in-game time synchronized with the real world time, the world game time would not span long enough of a time. I play a lot of TES, but not for the majority of my day (except maybe weekends that I'm not drawing or painting or doing something) Say my character didn't sleep or 'wait', I could be playing in the same game-day for, phewww, God knows how long in that day, in-game.
All that being said, I think it makes perfect sense how it is. And I think BGS was right in their decision to do so.

I never really thought about the level toggling bit, that was pretty interesting. I always enjoy the world in it's more... grounded and mundane state, and not having petty bandits running around with daedric armour and such. But Skyrim is supposed to have more... gravity to it and more... darkness than Oblivion had, so I'm not sure, I can't wait to see; that's for certain. :yes:

As for the map thing, like Bukee said, I'm pretty sure they've confirmed the new map interface will be much more friendly.
I think the notepad is an excellent idea however, but it certainly would be a pain on console player's patiences.

Thanks for posting your ideas OP. :goodjob:

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:26 am

real explorers only waits if they need to do a quest or somenthing at a specific time, in oblivion and morrowind, the only thing that made my days alot shorter were the fast travels... i only used the wait buttons because of the shops, or to wait somenthing happen, but, while exploring, you don't have to wait for anything, your free. your ussualy not folowing any quests.. so you don't wait...

Exactly, that's why I thought the Oblivion time was too fast, because I could be in the Imperial City and shops and whatnot from 9 AM and then 20 minutes later all the shops were closed or closing.

» Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:55 am

1) Leveling toggle on/off:

Eh. That doesn't matter that much to me, though I can see how it could be a nice feature. I've got a Redguard in Oblivion who's done all the MG recommendations, most of the side quests, all of the Thieves Guild and is most of the way through KotN and just went to level 10 and should probably max out at about level 20, if that. So long as I can do that sort of thing with the build, I'm fine. If they rearrange the leveling system enough that it makes that impossible, then yeah - I'd want some other way to slow and cap leveling. Uber characters get boring.

2) Gametime = Realtime:

Even though it's already been addressed, and to no avail, I wholeheartedly disagree with this. The only way that they could make 1:1 scale time work is with 1:1 scale distance as well. Since that's certainly not going to happen, then 1:1 scale time can't happen either. The time has to be set to the same scale as the size of the map, or it destroys immersion. I don't care how big it says the map is supposed to be - if I can go from one side to the other in an hour, then it's no more than about 10 miles.

3) BIGGER Map Size:

Sure. This'd be nice. I don't expect it. Bigger map = more resources to create it = more cost = somebody in a boardroom already nixed the idea.

4) In-game notepad:

Eh... I guess. I always have paper and pens around when I play games anyway and am already in the habit of making notes to myself whenever necessary. I guess it would be nice to be able to do that in-game, but it's not that big a deal.

The things I want to see:

I want to not only be able to, but have to, find people and places by asking around and getting information from NPCs. I have absolutely no desire at all to just follow the magic GPS that leads me unerringly to whatever I'm supposed to find next.

Similarly, I want to be able to, and have to, figure out what I'm supposed to do next by gathering information, thinking about it and figuring it out. I don't want the magic "journal" to just appear on the screen and tell me what I supposedly decided I should do next.

I want a range of armor and weapons with complex and sometimes subtle advantages and disadvantages. I don't want each new material to have the exact same assortment of pieces, each one of which is exactly X points more expensive, weighs Y points more and does or prevents Z points more damage than the previous one. That's dull, dull, dull.

I want a range of body and face types. I don't want another game in which all the different races are just recolors of the exact same body, and especially not one in which the beast races look like humans in bad Star Trek makeup. And I want women who look, walk and move like women and men who look, walk and move like men. And I want young people with young bodies and old people with old bodies - not just different faces stuck on the exact same body.

There's more, but that'll do for now....

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:06 pm

1, 2, 3 and 4 *snip*

1) That was my point exactly, that the fun deteriorates the more powerful you get, because it starts feeling a bit grindy and unchallenging. My main concern is that I would like to stay at each level for a much longer time than what I did with certain builds in Oblivion. I constantly had to watch my skills so I didn't increase the wrong skills too fast (or too slow either, if I wanted the x5 magnifier). Skyrim loses many of those things (thankfully), so it may not be a major problem. But if the toggle isn't hard to make, then why not...

2) Yeah, maybe 1:1 wouldn't be the end result. But it needs to be slower than Oblivion, IMO. But I'm flexible with the outcome, as long as I can feel like a day is a day to me.

3) Not really more resources. They still need to make the interface to begin with. Increasing the framelengths is only a matter of assigning different size values so that more of the map is visible. Again, I'm not talking about the map itself, but the map interface/menu. e.g. Pipboy 3000 display.

4) I too have a block of paper around, but having it in-game instead would sort of do us roleplayers some justice, by removing another meta-game factor and making it the exact opposite - immersive. I can live without it though, it's just that I find it weird for it NOT to be in a RPG (of all things) when it's so easily available in other games that are much less RPG-based.

The things I want to see:

I want to not only be able to, but have to, find people and places by asking around and getting information from NPCs. I have absolutely no desire at all to just follow the magic GPS that leads me unerringly to whatever I'm supposed to find next.

Similarly, I want to be able to, and have to, figure out what I'm supposed to do next by gathering information, thinking about it and figuring it out. I don't want the magic "journal" to just appear on the screen and tell me what I supposedly decided I should do next.

I want a range of armor and weapons with complex and sometimes subtle advantages and disadvantages. I don't want each new material to have the exact same assortment of pieces, each one of which is exactly X points more expensive, weighs Y points more and does or prevents Z points more damage than the previous one. That's dull, dull, dull.

I want a range of body and face types. I don't want another game in which all the different races are just recolors of the exact same body, and especially not one in which the beast races look like humans in bad Star Trek makeup. And I want women who look, walk and move like women and men who look, walk and move like men. And I want young people with young bodies and old people with old bodies - not just different faces stuck on the exact same body.

There's more, but that'll do for now....

Agreed, for the most part. It'll be nice to see what they've done with Skyrim, especially with regards of the new Smithing skill (ok, maybe not new but renamed from Armorer ad then revamped with perks lol). I also think Oblivion took away a lot of the joy of figuring things out, in favor of the casual masses who wants instant gratification. Me me me, now now now. Preferably yesterday when all my troubles seemed so far away xD

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:53 pm

(Sorry for any rant, I'm a little emo'ish tonight.)

I hope Bethesda takes the time to read this thread. Some might have been mentioned before (probably), but it's kinda important. On one hand, Bethesda claims to criticize their own game the minute its out and they're free to write down everything they did wrong with it. I respect that, and I also respect Bethesda's overall ability to create kickass games. BUT, certain "simple things" seem to continually get ignored by the devs (not just Bethesda) in favor of all the gimmicky game-selling grandeur. Selling a game is important yes, but game sales isn't just about the gimmicks - it's also about the little things that makes us, the players, feel like the game has a certain "little extra". A solidity and "infrastructure", sort of. Here are some examples of things I sorely missed in Oblivion:

1) Leveling toggle on/off:

Simply put, the ability to turn skill gain on/off would allow players to control the rate at which they gained levels. Some player would want to play a long low-level game, while others would want to get to maximum level quickly. This feature would put that power in the hands of the player, without imbalancing game progression. Encounters are still scaled, and you won't be getting Daedric stuff if you're level 5, anyways (assuming that Skyrim is anything like Oblivion). Also, since skilling is tied to level-up, you won't be able to exploit having superhigh skills at low levels since you DO NOT gain skill if this is turned off.

On each skill-up: IF toggle = ON, you gain +1 skill. If toggle = OFF you gain +0 skill. Should be very simple to code for such a huge positive impact on gameplay flexibility.

2) Gametime = Realtime:

Which one of you at Bethesda got the idea of letting the in-game clock go 50 times faster than realtime? Why would anyone need the time to go quicker when they can just hit the "Wait" button and use seconds to get to the other half of the day anyways? I can understand it if you're playing a fixed-clock game. But any game that has a "Wait" button?!!

In Oblivion, I'm running around in the Imperial City and I'm unable to explore even half the city before all shops close and I need to fast forward the time to the next day. Traveling between cities also eats massive hours, causing half of the travels to get me out of the hours I need to be at places - forcing me to use "Wait" button way too much, instead of when I personally want to use it. For ANY singleplayer game that has such a "Wait" button, one would assume that "gametime = realtime" would be a quintessential rule of game design. Please tell me why this isn't the case.

3) BIGGER Map Size:

One of my greatest disappointments for both Oblivion and Fallout 3, was the grocely minimized world map sizes - both in terms of screen coverage (in Oblivion is filled maybe 1/3 of the screen, in Fallout 3 it was even smaller) and in terms of the map size itself (e.g. the map in Oblivion should been scaled larger so that icons would be a little further apart). The latter is not a major issue IMO, but the screen coverage IS, imo. Not because its so incredibly detrimental to the playing value, but because it's completely unnecessary. Every feature that lowers the gameplay value, even by a small amount, needs to NOT be there.

The game is paused (although maybe not for Skyrim), and the current focus is to study a map of the world. Why should it not be covering the entire screen, more or less? Give me ONE good reason (for Skyrim), even in a realtime map reading. By the simple press of a button, the map is gone anyways, and it's not exaclty like a map read will make you particularly vulnerable either (due to that same button to take you back into the game world in 1 second). So please make the maps a little less cramped up, user-hostile and outright annoying. Fallout 3 is forgiven, due to how you wanted the map to fit within the Pipboy 3000 screen, but what about Oblivion and now Skyrim. Besides, why couldn't Kid 101 just bring his/her Pipboy closer up to his face?...

4) In-game notepad:

Deus Ex had this feature. Enough said. Why do action and adventure games have this roleplaying feature without effort, when an actual ROLEPLAYING game does not?!! Please give us the power to write own notes in an in-game journal and be able to group our notes in folders that makes it all easily reviewed. Wow suffers from the same, but EVE Online implements it masterfully. There's ALWAYS gonna be certain things that a quest journal doesn't pick up on, clues and whatnot. Player-written notes can also help with immersion, especially if we're presented with a lot of freeform clues and information that requires us to take notes. Just imagine being able to write down all the trainer locations in Oblivion, or a list of all the visited locations that you haven't yet fully explored (and you want to wait until later to explore them - but you need to remember which you didn't explore).

There are also several other things I'd like to see in Skyrim, but I think these 4 cover the most important features that I can't think of good reasons NOT to have in the game. They are simple to design, very user-flexible, balanced and they all make perfect sense. As for you fellow forumers, you're free to disagree of course.

Discuss!

1) Because that's a strange feature to put in a game? It might be a cool cheat code, but actual options like that don't exist in normal games. Sounds more like a player made mod.

2) Because you would never see the world change? You would literally have to be stuck at your computer for like 12 hours STRAIGHT. Were you on crack when you thought of this?

I LIKE seeing the sunset and rise while I play, if would svck having to abuse the wait system JUST to see the game environment change around me.

3) Probably to make it fit into the Menu HUD.

4) Yeah this one is okay.

Edit: Oops, fixed #3 thought by "map" you meant the entire game world.

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:50 pm

Literally none of those are must-haves. Not even close.

I also think Gametime = Realtime is a terrible, terrible idea.

yup...awful... quests where they say meet here at this time like 2:00 AM i want to be able to do the quest that day not wait till night

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:09 pm

real explorers only waits if they need to do a quest or somenthing at a specific time, in oblivion and morrowind, the only thing that made my days alot shorter were the fast travels... i only used the wait buttons because of the shops, or to wait somenthing happen, but, while exploring, you don't have to wait for anything, your free. your ussualy not folowing any quests.. so you don't wait...

Or a vampire stuck in a cave at 10 am. I have to wait alot.

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:07 pm

Everybody would like a bigger map, but it's not happening. Too much work. You get a choice of either: lots of little details, or lots of map and few details. Bethesda got a fair amount of grief for Oblivion in terms of auto-generated scenery, and that's one of the changes they've focused on in Skyrim. OTOH, the in-game map is getting a fancy 3D overhaul. The idea scares me (too sci-fi for TES), but it sounds like most of the current complaints about maps will be solved.

The timescale thing is not a good idea IMHO. There are mods in Oblivion and Morrowind that do this (or you can set it in the console). Default timescale in both games is 30 (i.e. 30 game minutes = 1 real minute). "hardcoe" mods with an established user base and a lot of experience set the timescale to 15, and 10 is considered the limit--less than that just doesn't work. YMMV, but I think that getting too extreme with the timescale both hurts immersion (yes, that word), and creates more of a hassle than you're hoping to fix.

The journal option would be nice to have.

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:15 pm

1) Leveling and character progression are important features in RPGs and I'm afraid I just don't understand why you would want to stop leveling for any reason, most people want a way to level faster.
2) That would be a double edged sword, if it was night time and you wanted the shops to be open you would have to use the wait feature, for a large number of quests you need to go to location A, at time B, so you might end up using the wait feature more often to meet with your appointments than you would if game time moved faster than real time. The only games that use real time are games that the time it is in game doesn't matter for the NPCs, no one ever sleeps . And my final point on this subject is that there is always the option to rush through the campaign in 10+ or - hours so what's the point of dynamic weather/time of day, if you can complete the game before one day has even passed?
3) I don't care if they change the map size or not, as long as you can zoom in and out and can scroll across it faster than oblivion. (for console version)
4) In game note pad? Yes, please!

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:47 pm

I'd like it if they could let us choose our own timescale from a set range in the options menu. Say, anything from 1 min RL:1 min game to 1 min RL:60 min game or something like that.

» Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:58 am

1) Don't care
2) No
3) Don't care
4) ABSOLUTELY

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:41 pm

Why would you want to trun off getting skills? It's an RPG that the whole point of the game, making your character better. What you want to do is use it to cheat so you can beat the whole game at level one. That's the only reason you would what that feature. I call it the "Turn off TES, and turn on Witcher button".

» Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:23 am

My main disagreement to the OP is with the wanting of a No levelup option, this seems silly to me as it assumes the entire game will be level scaled, everyone and their mother who have played other ES games know that feature is just completely ridiculous, I sincerely would hope Bethesda have learned from this by now, having most NPC's and creatures with static levels works best, I mean sure loot was leveled somewhat and certain creatures didn't really show up until certain levels which was fine by me because back in say Morrowind, this was all done very well.

So I have to disagree with a no-levelup option because if the game is truly going back to Morrowind style adventuring as it's been suggested, this feature would be entirely pointless, besides a no level run would make sense in an RPG like FF or KH but not a kind of RPG that ES games are.

However I agree on the map, all for large world and a writable Journal would be rather enjoyable.

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:05 pm

I think a must have would be a new difficulty slider with more options to customize the challenge to the players preference.
Like if you have a very high armor and health and still want the stronger and mid-strong enemies to be able to kick your ass then just turn up the enemy damage slider.
Or if your character for some reason don't have very high damaging weapons and low health for some reason and the enemies are too brutal then you can turn down the enemy health or enemy armor slider.

Why?
Oblivion was horrible with it's difficulty slider.
And FO3 and NV was always to easy, even on Very Hard.
Giving us something like this means we can customize the difficulty to our preference.
Those that want a casual experience can get it, those that want somewhat of a challenge can get it, and us who are masochists can also get it.

"But that would be cheating since you can lower their health and damage to the lowest!"
You already can in Oblivion, FO3 and NV. :confused:

(This is because I'm a console player and I cannot mod my game to my preference.)

On the thread though.

1. I don't really care too much since I wouldn't use it but I would not mind it if it's in.

2. Well I don't want it to be the same as real real-time but the clock definitely needs to go slower.

3. Map is most likely already in it's final design, Don't think they're gonna change it or anything so: :shrug: It'll be what it'll be.

4. Next to me I have around 14 different pens and four note books, don't see why we need a notepad really since picking up a pen and paper IRL isn't too difficult.
But again, it's not something I object, if it's in then good I guess.

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:00 pm

1) Don't care
2) No
3) Don't care
4) ABSOLUTELY

Pretty much this. For no skill ups it is more a non issue now as total level is based on skill levels. Plus, no level ups means there will be no perks, no skill increase, and no way you are gonna survive in the dungeons that have a high minimum level.

For the 1:1 ratio, I planned on releasing a mod like this but I wouldn't use it. To counter the OP argument on this, unless the wait feature could be specific to the exact number of minutes you want to wait everything would take a lot longer and have even more waiting. Got a quest that can only be done from 1:30 - 2:00 pm? It's a shame you have to use the wait function for 6 hours, then wait in game another 27 minutes because when you heard about the quest it was 7:03 AM. Like I said though, you add a minute function for waiting and you are fine.

If we are talking Game world, it would be sweet, but it won't happen. Too late for that. For the UI, I don't care at all, I'm still gonna be moving a magical arrow around it to see where I need to go.

Finally, Yes. The only way I think the previous idea would matter is if we could at notes to our map too. Like "Necromancer Altar here" or "Come back at level 20, too hard" That plus an in game notebook would rock.

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:22 pm

Literally none of those are must-haves. Not even close.

I also think Gametime = Realtime is a terrible, terrible idea.

I was just thinking about this.

And the Glarthir quests in Skingrad.

"Ok, follow Bob around all day, and see what he does". Well, I'm not spending a literal 12+ hours of game time doing this. And he has you do this three times.

Then there's all the times I end up waiting for 10-20 minutes to pass because it's almost a new hour and something will happen then. WAITing 1 hour will be too long.

--------

Another thing to consider is world size and travel speed. If you had 24 hours = 24 hours in Oblivion, you could run across the country in 30-60 minutes or something. Or if you adjusted the travel speed, you'd be moving slower than a snail.

(Francesco's scaling mod for Oblivion includes altering the time scale. The options range from 1:30 - OB default - down to 1:12. There are also a couple "variable" timescale mods from what I can see - they make the scale longer when traveling, so between cities takes "days", and drops the in-town/combat/dungeon scale so that you have more time to do stuff.)

» Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:24 am

I note there is some confusion for a number of people on the "map size" comment.

I believe the OP was talking about the world map that you look at to plan your trips (i.e, you pull up the PipBoy in FO3, and click on the "map" button) not the size of the gameworld.

Except that the Main Plot doesn't last for 24 hours realtime, it's approximately 60+ hours if you play non-stop (which is almost three full days, so you're not gonna be playing non-stop). Furthermore, those 60 hours can easily become 100-200 hours because most playing will likely do at least some of the side-quests, if not ALL of them.

Still would seem silly - ok, I solved the crisis, became the top of the Arena, bought houses in five cities, and became the leader of the Fighter's and Mage's guilds. In ...math... in 4-8 days.

» Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:42 am

I was just thinking about this.

And the Glarthir quests in Skingrad.

"Ok, follow Bob around all day, and see what she does". Well, I'm not spending a literal 12+ hours of game time doing this. And he has you do this three times.

Then there's all the times I end up waiting for 10-20 minutes to pass because it's almost a new hour and something will happen then. WAITing 1 hour will be too long.

--------

Another thing to consider is world size and travel speed. If you had 24 hours = 24 hours in Oblivion, you could run across the country in 30-60 minutes or something. Or if you adjusted the travel speed, you'd be moving slower than a snail.

(Francesco's scaling mod for Oblivion includes altering the time scale. The options range from 1:30 - OB default - down to 1:12. There are also a couple "variable" timescale mods from what I can see - they make the scale longer when traveling, so between cities takes "days", and drops the in-town/combat/dungeon scale so that you have more time to do stuff.)

Akh.. Glarthir..
I hated him worse than the Adoring Fan. Whenever I FIRST saw him I shot him in the face with an arrow. That was that, and that was my kill for the DB. I hated him and his quest.

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:47 pm

Yeah, I do acknowledge that I kinda polarized the issue a bit. My problem was mainly about Oblivion having waaay to fast day cycles, so if not gameplay = real-time, then at least it needs to be MUCH slower than Oblivion. Because imo, Oblivion time was just too much over the top.

1 Oblivion Hours = 2 minutes Real-time. So 24 Oblivion hours took 48 minutes real-time. For Skyrim, I would accept it if 24 Skyrim hours were AT LEAST 2 hours real-time, preferably 6 hours real-time IMO (assuming that the X = Y isn't happening).

If you think Oblivion is bad at this, FFxi is even worse about it. One real life hour always (without exception) equals one game day, no possibility of waiting. Though only the trade guild shops ever keep any kind of schedule (all other shops are open 24/7, even stall vendors), so if you arrive right after they close you have an unavoidable thirty minute wait unless the next day happens to be a shop holiday (in which case you're screwed out of another hour), though to be honest no one ever uses the trade guilds any more (and I think that was originally put into effect to put the crimp on real money traders)

But in any case I think your points don't take into account the fact that there's a scale issue. Without the more rapid day/night cycle it would make the land mass look even smaller than it already does.

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:35 pm

1) Leveling toggle on/off:

2) Gametime = Realtime:

3) BIGGER Map Size:

4) In-game notepad:

"Must-haves"? Hardly...

1) Level toggle - Not for me. I think the majority who play RPGs find satisfaction in leveling-up; it's one of the periphery goals for me. I think the well-documented deficiencies with Oblivion's level system are confusing the issue here some. If level-ups are scaled effectively, this problem is minimized dramatically. Also, I want to have places that have set level ranges that low-level characters cannot enter without getting their ass kicked. It should be a sense of accomplishment to reach a certain skill level and say, "I'm going back to that dungeon now for payback!" I can't imagine turning off leveling. (Of course, if it's a toggle, I just wouldn't use the function.)

2)Gametime=Realtime - Seriously? Definitely not for me. Could the ratio be changed? Probably. Or maybe time could scale based on where you are and what you're doing. The clock moves faster when you're wandering the Wilderness and slows down in battle or in stores. That could work. But the idea of playing the game for two weeks to finish one in-game day!? (Some of us have limited playing time.) Wow. That's just absurd. Plus, the game needs to be scaled for believability. Can I really save the world from immenent disaster in a mere 20 hours? No. The list could go on, but... I'll leave it there.

3)Bigger Map Size - I'm a little indifferent on this point.

4)In-game Notepad - Again, a little indifferent, but leaning toward yes.

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:38 pm

None of these are necessary for the game.

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:12 pm

Akh.. Glarthir..
I hated him worse than the Adoring Fan. Whenever I FIRST saw him I shot him in the face with an arrow. That was that, and that was my kill for the DB. I hated him and his quest.

Too funny. He was invariably my DB kill also. I killed him straight away even the first time I played the game!

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:49 pm

1. Too difficult to implement.
2. Day/night cycle should last like 2-3 hours, in my opinion.
3. In an RPG - detailed map, better interaction and more characters are more important than having a 1000 km2 map. Skyrim is not Just Cause 2.
4. In-game notepad can be very useful and it's easy to implement. It would be great.

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:23 pm

Why do people continue to think that I was talking about making you wait for longer? there's a WAIT button in the game, use it and you DON'T have to wait for an hour or whatever the latest poster is babbling about. I was talking about the day cycle, as it is if you DON'T use the wait button.Nobody has suggested that the wait button be removed.

Are you guys even reading the thread? 1000km2? wtf? I'm talking about the popup map menu, not the world itself.

Also @ goranzghr: no.1 isn't difficult at all to implement, it simply adds a binary variable check ever time a skill levels. If 0, it levels, if 1, it doesn't. It's easier that writing a single quest for the game.

» Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:47 pm

Why do people continue to think that I was talking about making you wait for longer? there's a WAIT button in the game, use it and you DON'T have to wait for an hour or whatever the latest poster is babbling about. I was talking about the day cycle, as it is if you DON'T use the wait button.Nobody has suggested that the wait button be removed.

Well, at least a few of us talked about parts of OB where we've had to "wait" (as in stand around looking at the clock once in awhile) rather than WAIT. Depends on the quest or NPC, really. :shrug: