Sarcasm: Universal substitute for a real point.

The difference is that removing mysticism is like removing the scientific method without replacing it with anything substantial, using the excuse that "oh well it all comes naturally from learning other things anyway". Mysticism is a school of magic that revolves around the manipulation of pure magic and other esoteric, other-worldly, and/or inexplicable things, as I've already explained.



No. The only thing that matters about magic is how you use it. It doesn't matter if you're taught to use restoration type spells if all you're doing is making fireballs anyway. The schools of magic came to be defined as they were because they were labels that could be given to any group of mages that would use magic in a particular way. Some mages destroyed things and manipulated pure elements. They came to define the school of destruction, which just provides a framework for a mage to develop that particular way of using magic. And the same goes for each school, including mysticism, which came to be defined by the mages who dealt into to the esoteric. Nothing clearly defined (as the name itself should imply) like destruction or conjuration, destruction and creation respectively, but still fundamentally important as, lore wise, having some understanding of mysticism tends to not only give a great advantage to well aged mages, but also allows any mage to better understand how it is that magic works. That is what mysticism is. The very fabric of magic. This isn't just purely a gameplay issue (which only became an issue because of constant, unnecessary, and quite rather ill advised spell rearranging) but also a lore issue.



Of course, and if you read above (and again, my other posts. I go over this multiple times through out the topic), you'll see why having those spells under a school of mysticism makes the most sense.




Again, see above. The schools are defined by how the students of them used their magic. A teleportation spell (which in TES has only been either an Intervention or a Recall) is clearly not using magic in the same way as developing a fireball. However, these teleportation spells do deal with just pure magical and esoteric substance. So, they belong under the mysticism classification. And that means that the skill of mysticism itself should still remain.



It most certainly does. Read my posts. (quite frankly, I don't think very many of the most vocal opponents in this thread have been reading them)

I've read all of your posts. Albeit, I have thought that they've pretty much repeated the same things. There's a point to what you are saying about conventions of knowledge, just as there was a point to saying Pluto should remain a planet. Just because there was an audience for that didn't make it correct. Whether it is popular to have a conservative perspective on understanding reality or not, that doesn't mean it matters that much when it comes to the next step.

First, this is fiction. Second, even within the context of the fiction, many thought they had it wrong about mysticism. It's been 200 years and they could have realized a lot. They were wrong and magic schools don't matter, or mysticism was just a misapplication of another school? maybe mysticism changed after the oblivion gates all closed? maybe they found out how to use other magical sources to power similar spells that worked even better? Or maybe they found out that mysticism actually powers all magic at a more basic metaphysical level. Within the context of the fiction, they could have been wrong in the past games and just still arguing for mysticism's value or uniqueness because it was easier to keep it within their past framework. Especially if you are an expert in mysticism. Oh, academic types... :facepalm:

Either way, that doesn't matter. The distinctions between the schools may or may not be substantial, but whether they are only physically/scientifically relevant, educationally relevant, societally relevant, or not relevant at all is only important within the context of the fiction. Bethesda writes the fiction. Above heeding their own lore, they value game design. They made the decision to disperse mysticism from a game design standpoint and they will come up with a lore justification for it. Just read Todd Howard's quote about mysticism from the GI article. Todd Howard doesn't care about those Altmer and their insistence on keeping their science consistent with their curriculum, that would be path dependency even if it didn't affect his game design. It served the purposes of improving the game design to remove mysticism and change the lore. Game design wins.

Does any1 ever read what they have already released b4 making stupid topics on it,.... mysticism is just another way of saying magic, so a school of magic doesnt need a magic school of magic, so they took the spells that were in there and moved them to much more sensible areas of study,... the end,... whats the frigging problem with this you act as tho they took away the spells they didnt they just moved them period.

No, it really doesn't. Your argument is that mysticism has a cool flavor, and that that flavor excuses its mechanical schizophrenia. I (and, apparently, Bethesda), respectfully disagree.

It's not my favorite skill. I only used it to detect life, but yeah i think it should return.

I loved mysticism in MW. It was almost vital to playing an effective mage, and most often NPC mages or characters with magical items were pretty short on mysticism (except daedra with innate reflection) so having mysticism skills and spells made my mage feel like a "true" mage. Without spells like reflection, absorption, dispel, telekinesis, and detection, my mage would have been in trouble in some situations.

Now, if they just kept a few mysticism effects and blended them in with alteration or conjuration, like telekinesis and spell reflection/absorption, I'd be okay with that. However, it seems to me like they may have scrapped mysticism more because its effects won't be needed because the gameplay won't involve the need for things like detection or spell absorption. Which, if true, sounds to me like they're cheapening the magical experience even more, in favor of meleers/archers. Which I hope is NOT the case or I will have lost all hope/respect for Skyrim/future TES games.

This.

The Daggerfall manual it describes Mysticism as a collection of spells that are discovered accidentally by experiments and nobody knows exactly how they work.
So it's not really a coherent skill and it doesn't make much sense that getting good at teleportation will make you better at life detection since they're totally different spells anyway.

Once they discover how those spells work, then it's no longer a mysticism spell but a spell that fits in one of the other schools.
Charm used to be a mysticism spell for example, but now it's clearly an illusion spell.

So it's perfectly acceptable that the entire discipline of Mysticism is obsolete now in the 4th era.
There also used to be a school called Thaumaturgy, which was later discovered to be nothing more as a different approach to Alteration.

why do you ask justification for people who dont have your oppinion but not for people who have the same?

Wanna know what they told themselves at bethesda for real? they went on a meeting and someone said: does mysticism as a separate skill has any gameplay values?

at that point they understood that mysticism didn't make sense and it was just an excuse to have more schools of magic in previous games to balance the number of skills in each specialisation. the spells will just be redistributed and the lore about mysticism will be changed a bit to tell that its not a school of magic but only a way of studying magic.

Gameplay is more important than lore if you want to make a good game. you build the lore around the game not the other way around. thats what they didnt initialy with arena there wasnt much lore but it built itself slowly. now they need to change it for the good of gameplay and thats a good thing.

The removal of Pluto as a planet and Mysticism as a school are not the same thing. Far from it, because Mysticism was not a school of magic that was even close to being disputed as to whether it is actually deserving of its own school. It had its own ground, as I've repeated multiple times, because no one seems to want to dispute me on it even though that is my ENTIRE argument, and removing it was entirely different from the removal of Pluto because Pluto was so radically different from other planets classification wise. Pluto was more like a small moon or asteroid compared to the rest of the planets. And if we use an anology, Mysticism is like a second Mars planet wise. Not the most important, but definitely worth of being called a planet.



All I can see here in the reasons you suggested is just poor damage control. There was no reason ever to remove Mysticism, as I've already explained, and the only reason we have come to this point is because of gameplay, which was in turn because of having Mysticism's most useful and awesome spells taken out of it. Teleportation and Absorb, detect (other than life), etc were all either taken out of mysticism and the games altogether or idiotically put into other schools that they did not belong.



What is improved by the removal of mysticism other than having to get rid of a skill to support some idiotic notion that all of the specializations HAVE to have an even number of skills? Even the repercussions of allowing that to happen won't matter to any character in the long run except pures who only use skills within one specialization. And even then, the difference will be negligible at best. I'm pretty sure that in the long run the extra levels pure mages could have gotten from having one more skill than the other specializations would be made up for by the fact that at that point everyone is significantly powerful and equipped well enough to negate what ever gameplay issue that could make.



Obviously theres no such things as mages that just use plain and pure magic, IE, magic that hasn't been geared towards a specific direction like the other schools (destruction, creation, healing, etc), which is precisely what Mysticism was.



If you think thats what my argument is then you haven't been reading anything I've been saying. Mysticism has just as much ground to stand on as Destruction or Conjuration does, and removing it has only come about because of stupid decisions to take out all of its spells.



I've already explained how they work. There may still be some questions yeah, but the fact that all of mysticism's spells have just been the pure manipulation of magic and esoteric material is the best way of explaining how they work.



Admittedly I wasn't thinking the poll through very well when I did it, and I really just don't feel like editing it.

I always thought of mysticism as the magic manipulation school...i.e. using magic to make other magic do what you want. Reflection,Absorb,Dispel etc. None of the other schools had similar effects. In D&D terms, I felt like Mysticism was the Abjuration school of TES...looked down upon by other specialist mages, but Abjurers (Mystics) knew the inner workings of raw magic, and therefore knew how to manipulate all the other magic schools in a general sense. Being a Mystic (Abjurer) would mean being the mage that other mages fear, because they know the Mystic can eff around with their own magic.

No, I've read your posts. The closest thing I can see in them to a defense of Mysticism is "the flavor of Mysticism is cool, and these spells are a little bit awkward in the other schools, therefore it's a good thing we have this school with no mechanical identity." Unless you're arguing that Mysticism has a mechanical identity, in which case I'd be happy to know what it is.

Cosmar makes a pretty good point, actually. You could make a case that Mysticism should be the spell school that allows you to mess with magic - but then that would go against ZzArr.:hu's argument, because for reasons that are totally inexplicable to me he actually thinks Dispel doesn't belong in Mysticism. (whuh?)

Yeah. All the other schools do specific things to manipulate the physical world...Conjuration: make physical stuff apear, make physical stuff do what you want. Destruction: blow crap up, UN-create physical stuff. Alteration: make physical stuff operate differently than it normall does. Illusion: make physical stuff SEEM different that what it actually is/does. Healing: Put physical stuff back together/prevent it from being altered. Mysticism: Make all the other schools do what you want...prevent them from using their abilities, prevent them from using their abilities on you, and learn some other nifty tricks along the way.

The effects that came under mysticism were not useless. I am not much of a magic user, and even I used frequently soultrap, reflect, and detect life. Now I'd lie if I said I cared much about the disappearance of Mysticism, provided those effects are still available. Not much of a problem in Lore either : much as philosophies die out due to lack of interest and followers, so can magic schools, I suppose.

*edit* Yuuuup. "There are few mages who devote their lives to the study of Mysticism." "Some even ventured that Mysticism arose from the unused elements of successfully, or even unsuccessfully, cast spells." . School could very well die out in 200 years : few disciples, and it's already suspected it's stems from other schools.

Still, I do sympathise. My lack of interest stems from my lack of attachment to magic. But I am myself still very much annoyed that short blade has been dumped with long blade : doesn't make sense to me, and while I can still use daggers and such, I feel that reduction makes stealth lose some of its specificity. Reckon it's the same for you. *Votes for mysticism*

Please god stop with this flavor crap. Anyways, yes, Mysticism does have a mechanical identity (if I'm understanding what you mean by that) as I've already reiterated for the thousandth time: Mysticism is the manipulation of plain magic. That is what mysticism does compared to the other schools. It manipulates magic. And it also manipulates the esoteric material of the universe. Hence, the invocation of the gods and the seeming ability to be in two places at once, (related to teleportation and mark/recall)among other things that could be added to the school to make it better.



Which has precisely been my point in the entire topic. The MANIPULATION (ie, messing with) of magic, whether that be your own magic or someone else's. The reason I stress the "pure" bit of my argument is because of all the spells that we've seen, Mysticism's have been the only ones that did not have any specific indication that they were anything else other than just magic.

And no, I do not think dispel doesn't belong in mysticism. I never even said that. Someone else in the topic did, but it was not me.



The thing is though that it does create a problem in lore unless bethesda decides to completely redesign how the other schools are defined. And quite frankly I see no reason why should ever have happened, lore wise. What would have been the point? Sure Bethesda could come up with something but I sincerely doubt that even Bethesda could come up with an excuse that isn't just going to be damage control.

So, the effects that I can see falling into "manipulation of magic" are:

- Dispel
- Spellcasting buffs (obvious overlap with Restoration)
- Reflect magic (obvious overlap with Alteration)
- Spell absorption (obvious overlap with Restoration and Alteration)

Teleportation and telekinesis are obviously Alteration, not Mysticism, since neither has anything to do with manipulating magic. Soul Trap is related to enchanting, which is the exact opposite of manipulating magic - manipulating equipment, the one thing everyone except mages relies on. Detection spells are obviously out. So's statistic draining (except possibly draining Intelligence, Willpower, Magicka, and magic skills, which obviously overlaps with Destruction and Restoration).

This is a theoretically interesting school, but:

1. It's obviously not necessary, as the only spell effect that fits there better than in another school is Dispel.
2. It's very, very specialized. It's only useful when fighting enemy mages. Spellcasting buffs and spell absorption have some applicability to specialists in other schools of magic, but as a mage you'll only ever use this school for the buffs.

At this point, it's a toss-up. Is a school this narrow worth including? Obviously Bethesda decided that no, it is not, and while I may not necessarily agree 100%, it's obviously a rational decision.

Oh, and from your very first post: "The dispel spell is the only spell that isn't necessarily connected to something related to real life mysticism, but generally it doesn't really fall under any other school except possibly restoration, but that is pushing it."

I like Mysticism but there are some logical reasons for deleting it. After Mannimarco, gates of Oblivion, perhaps Infernal City(i didn't read it) it could be VERY UNPOPULAR. Perhaps Mysticism was wiped by goverment(s) or mages after their war against necromancers.
There is one more point: "Mysticism" from the game is nothing more than few low and average level spells(as many other: you haven't summoned daedric lords, haven't destroyed entire town etc.) it has never been REAL MYSTICISM. Perhaps mags study these spells using similar in restoration or conjuration to make the process less difficult.

TES magic has come a long way from http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Magic_and_Spells

Comparing the lists from Daggerfall with those from Morrowind and Oblivion, Daggerfall's list seems even more eclectic. Looks like they're doing to Mysticism what they did to Thaumaturgy.

I hope they add mysticism-like magic as perks or learned spells. Some of them were very useful and fun to use

this

I cannot come up with anything better than "crap, there's no mystics left, let's share the teaching of their spells so we don't get yelled out by adventurers. You take Reflect ? Cool, cool. Next!"

I have already gone over why you're not really right here. And I've already repeated myself enough that all I feel like doing is redirecting you to past posts.



Again, not true. Mysticism is not only the manipulation of plain magic but also the esoteric, IE, things that cannot be explicitly and directly explained by a general and common notion like creation or destruction.



And? You only ever use destruction for the damage. You only ever use conjuration for the damage sinks. Should those be removed and their spells consolidated?



Only because they stupidly removed half of its useful spells and plainly refuse to put anything new and useful into it despite the fact that there's a momentous amount of potential.



Obviously it isn't possible for me to come to different conclusions on things as time goes on. When I first started this topic, I had quite literally forgotten about dispel until that moment. It wasn't until later on that I actually thought about how it could actually relate.

Except dropping Thaumaturgy into Illusion and Mysticism actually made sense. Just compare the spell effects vs the schools description - horrible. The school of Illusion was incredibly "weak", so most of Thaumaturgy was moved into it. But I don't agree on the name "Illusion" for what it has become, and some of it's spells should be moved out of it and into Mysticism. In the original Illusion, Light made sense, but how it is now I think like belongs in Mysticism. At least I'm not able to see how Light is a spell that "affects others", the way Illusion now (then Thaumaturgy) works. But it's not an easy thing to do without breaking the lore. Should the next game go somewhere else than Tamriel, I suggest they take a good look into how the magic system is built, and go for a completely different setup.

Destruction as a school is very weird to me. You study a school of magic, then you apply that knowledge (constructive or destructive, light or dark, whatever) according to who you are, and that would work well for all kinds of schools. Maybe Mysticism, being the most fundamental, is only using neutral effects. Body magic (now Restorative) can be used to heal and destroy body. Affection magic (now illusion) can cause others to do good or bad. Conjuration can be used to summon defensive guardians or offensive dremora. Elemental can be used to create a storm to irrigate fields, or manipulate elements into destructive forces. Substance (now alteration) can be used to toss people around or open locks etc. You just have to take a look at other games (or older dice systems) to get ideas on magic systems that makes more sense. I don't think TES magic is very well thought out.

Now this is something I can agree with. However, as far as maintaining the TES system goes, removing mysticism was a dumb idea.