Look at these two quotes. Look at them very carefully. What is wrong with this picture?



Translation: Mysticism is the "grab bag" school that gets all the spell effects that don't fit perfectly in the other schools, and has no magical identity of its own. Glad to see you admit it.



Damage and summoned creatures are inherently versatile and useful. Very specific, magic-related effects are not.



No, there isn't, because you can't even make up your mind about what Mysticism is.

Mysticism, if anything, was meta-magic. The manipulation of magic itself. If TES would have added more effects, I could have seen a place for spells like Permanency (making spells permanent, obviously).

However, due to the way that Mysticism was treated over time, it seems the devs just couldn't find time nor enough ideas to make mysticism its own unique school. And I'm okay with that so long as we get to keep all of its effects.


I have no clue how you managed to fight some of those liches in Mounrhold without dispel on self.

Oh, I'm not saying Dispel is useless. I'm saying that having a whole skill dedicating to fighting those liches under Mournhold is a waste of a skill.

I do agree that there might be potential for Mysticism as a dedicated "meta-magic" school if it was explored more, but obviously that's not the decision Bethesda made.

Yes, I was being inconsistant. And I wasn't referring to posts that far back, but ones in the past couple of pages. If you'd like me to just link you or quote it, I'd be happy to. And despite my admitted inconsistancy, the fact of the matter is that my current standpoint is correct, and my old one (ie, the one I presented in my first post regarding dispel) is wrong because I hadn't really given it the same amount of thought as the other spell effects until later on in the topic. If you expect me to stay consistent from post 1 to post 500 in a topic like this then you're asking an open man to be narrow. And that just doesn't work.



Again, you fail to see the point: Mysticism is the manipulation of plain magic and the esoteric. If that doesn't make any sense to you then I direct you a dictionary, as I can't explain it more simply than that without defining every word. That sentence IS the magical identity of mysticism. Just because the spells under can also accurately be just called "spells that don't go anywhere else" doesn't mean anything, as you could say the same thing about any of the other schools and their effects otherwise. And you indeed can go so far as to say that all schools are redundant in of themselves due to how magic is actually used by mages. But we're not arguing over the cosolidation of all schools (which I wouldn't have much a problem with aside from the obvious unneeded over-simplification of doing so) but the removal of school that was far from useless and did have its own ground.



I wasn't aware dispel was useless. Nor was I aware that detect life, intervention, reflect spell/damage, absorb, telekinesis, etc etc were all inherently useless all across the board. Even telekinesis had some use at times, and the only reason it wasn't inherently useful was because bethesda never made a point to make a use out of it.



You're wrong. Telekinetic damage, new ranges of teleportation, phasing, different invocations of deities (daedric, divine, tribal, etc), etc are all new effects that could be made under mysticism, and all of them would be useful. And with creativity there is even more potential. And yes, I can make up my mind on what mysticism is. And aside from my early posts, the only inconsistencies created are because of constant reiteration of a point that very few bother to either address or even bother to understand.



If you think that was all Mysticism was good for, then you never really put it to use. Or, you probably didn't realize you were using it.



You realize that has been my point right? The difference is that you refuse to stand against a pointless removal (standing by the "oh well its their game, they do what they want" sort of argument) that only came about because Beth was too lazy to make it much more useful than it was.

Mysticism just had spells that belonged to other schools. I mean, telekinesis obviously belonged to Alteration as well as the reflect spells (if they even make a return). Detect life was an obvious illusion spell as well.

Telekinesis belongs is Alteration ONLY if it affects things only (like now). If it is upgraded to toss people around, you're dealing with living tissue, and does not fit alteration.
Reflect and absorb are obvious Mysticism spells, since they deal with manipulating the fabric of magic itself.
Detect life does not at all belong in Illusion (in the sense of Thaumaturgy). It detects the magic within the person, hence it deals with magic itself. Furthermore it should be split into Detect Life, Undead, and Divine. Detect life reveals the undead? Never made sense to me, as they are not living beings. They still have that magic within them, and that's what is detected, and that's why it obviously belongs in Mysticism. Even light doesn't belong in Illusion (in the Thaumaturgy sense).

I imagine Mysticism's abolition(in lore) to be(or to have been) kinda new age and controversial, like when Pluto was declared to no longer be a planet.

why not remove magic all together, retconn all lore having to do with magic, so that younger audiences don't have to trouble their minds about all these magic effects and schools. it will be the most mainstream e.s. yet, so mainstream they will have to rename it all-of-the-family scrolls.

ed: ps, i enjoyed the school of mysticism, and did make several characters with it as a primary skill.

Mysticism was great.
Its useless now because they have slowly removed all of its core spells. Now it has basically soul trap, reflect and absorb magic.
I mean was, in Oblivion. Now its nothing...
Sad...
:mage:

I considered it to be utility spells. I liked it when playing a stealth character. But it will be fine, because I am sure that alteration can replace its place.

This one is a mystical message... ...(ghostly voice)... TOOooddDD... don't kill skills... Improve them...
But, the spell did not have effect... Too much late!
Really, I have not used habitually this skill... The problem is, less skills = less ways for the evolution of the player. To compress skills provokes that the player manages
to be powerful in less time and in too many things. Something that I see boring, except that you like to be like superman .
But, it's something that happens sooner or later.

Personally I feel Illusion has spells that aren't right. Its supposed to affect the mind of others? How does that make a radius of light around me? Night eye makes sense, affecting how your eye percieves the light, but to create a radius? Its easier and makes more sense to create a light source than to make the eye percieve a fictional light source.
Detect life isn't affecting anyones mind, not even your own. Its "feeling" the presence of another life form, not affecting how you percieve something.

On to other schools of magic. Restoration. Its a defensive school, raise stats, resist elements, heal or fortify life. Absorb isn't particularly defensive. Sure it does modify your stats, but it also drains someone elses, drain is destruction. Maybe absorbing stats should be in destruction? Or maybe they should be back in Mysticism.

Alteration and Destruction are mostly solid. But moving telekinesis into Alteration? It would only make sense depending on how you are manipulating the object. Are you creating forces on it to move it in the desired direction, such as creating a light wind to push upward causing it to float? Or are you affecting the, well I guess thats why no one understands Mysticism. If it is being moved by a non-physical force, I could see it belonging in Mysticism.

Absorb and reflect magic belong in Mysticism. It isn't a physical interaction, how could that be Alteration?

And thats how I see it.
Mysticism was always a useful school, it was the only school of magic that felt like magic too.

Edited a typo

Agreed.

They could move most spell effects without too much issue, but they would have to change how illusion works and change the spells themselves.
Like telekinesis, it can be moved to Alteration if they change how it manipulates objects. But all they really do is remove mystics from the game. I don't want an all elemental character, too mundane...

Speaking of Mysticism...
What of the Psijic Order? I bet they are mad...

No, originally in Daggerfall Thaumatorgy school dealt with "affecting others", and Illusion was purely that of visibility. That made Illusion extremely weak, so Thaumatorgy spells was for the most part moved into Illusion (some into Mysticism). Now however, Illusion is mostly that of "affecting others", which is why I don't agree with the name.


To me, Night Eye (and if we had Animal Eye and Heat Vision), would actually fit better with Restoration (Body Magic), as it deals with enhancing the abilities within the body itself.



Agreed. But I think Light belongs in Mysticism. I you think logically, and consider Mysticism to be Meta school of magic, what would be the two first things you would ever learn?
Dispell - Extremely important when things go wrong, as they typically do when you're starting out
Light - Channelizing the fabric in and around you to become a strong light source originating from a single point. But also visible to others.


Detect light? That is basic perception of they eye. Nothing magical about it at all. Detect life however, IS a magical ability, since you're able to see this source of magic where eye perception is blocked by objects.


That is precisely why I don't like Destruction as a school. If it became purely Elemental (not only for bad), many of its spells could with ease be moved to other schools where they fit better, and with a good engine there is lots of fun to be had with Elemental magic. If you start moving everything that can be used for destructive purposes into Destruction, it becomes waaaay to dominant and unbalanced. If renamed to Elemental, Disintegrate goes to Alteration (since it affects physical things in the world), Absorb and Drain etc goes to Restoration (or Body magic is more fitting).


Disagree on Destruction being solid, as shown above I agree Telekinesis is also Mysticism, and probably the third thing you would learn during Meta Magic - the basics. Limited at first, naturally, but can become a strong companion once fully trained. Telekinesis is also the one effect I'm having the most problem with placing Alteration is affecting other physical things in the world, so telekinesis belongs there too. Open lock, isn't that an advanced form of telekinesis? You manipulate the internals of the lock based on your knowledge of how a lock works, yet you are operating on things you cannot see. So in the end in my system I ended up putting telekinesis in Alteration.


Highly agree on that. In my system (which may break lore in other ways, but for the sake of discussion), Mysticism if center of all. All schools of magic have 5 perks, or levels, giving them access to more and more spell effects. I divided them as follows:

Mysticism:
1. Dispells, Light, & Detects
2. Protection & Resists
3. Divinity & Relocation (mark, recall, intervention spells)
4. Item charging & Whites (replacing enchant as a skill)
5. Enchanting & Blacks (replacing enchant as a skill)

Body school of magic (was restoration):
1. Restoration (basic healing)
2. Fortification
3. Clensing
4. Inhuman abilities (Night Eye)
5. Destructive

Affection school of magic (was illusion):
1. Charm, Calm & Demoralize
2. Frenzy & Rally
3. Silence & Paralyze
4. Chameleon & Invisibility
5. Commanding

Conjuration school of magic:
1. Items
2. Beastiary
3. Undead
4. Dremora
5. Daedra

Elemental school of magic (was destruction):
1. Fire
2. Frost
3. Wind
4. Water
5. Earth (Void, the invisible, is covered in Mysticism as fabric of magic itself)
Look at other games, there is tons of fun to be had with these alone

Alteration:
1. Weights (feather, burden, weak at the beginning, but grows strong with skill)
2. Remote (simple telekinesis, but will grow strong with skill)
3. Manipulation (open locks, manipulate invisible mechanics)
4. Visible Physics (manipulate structure of nature itself, allowing water walking and water breathing)
5. Invisible Physics (manipulate invisible forces of nature, allowing yourself to fly)

When it comes to magic, I have massive problems coming up with perks per school in the usual perk way. Doing it this way it feels like natural progression, and for anyone with only magic skills, will be fully trained at level 30, so it appears to be quite balanced as well.

I have no idea what BGS have in store for us, I just hope magic perks won't appear ludicrous.

It depends largely on which view you look at the schools. Either way, if they changed to effects to fit the school or the school's to fit the effects I wouldn't mind.

Its always good to see people you agree with somewhat!

Mysticism is better being put in their respective schools instead of having a pointless existence.

Maybe alteration should take the light spell, That way there are two different magic skills to choose from if you don't want to use a torch.

Mysticism was my favourite magic school in Oblivion, because of the Detect Life (stealth) and Telekinesis (thievery!) spells, both available at apprentice level when playing a stealth class.

I don't mind it's disappearence though. As long as Soul Trap and Detect Life is still in, I'm happy. While many of the magic skills doesn't make perfect sense, Mysticism made the least sense of all. How does the spells relate to each other? What makes them more mystical than others?

Destruction is clear - it's about directly harmful spells.
Conjuration is clear as well - it's almost entirely about summoning from Oblivion.
Alteration is less clear - you alter your equipment's weight (feather), your density (water walking), your hardness (shield)... But water breathing? Do you alter the water to be breathable? And open, do you "alter" the lock to unlock?
Restoration is fine up to the fortification spells. If I am a Restoration master I can restore my physical and mental attributes to what they were before - but increasing the maximum attributes? How is making me healthier than I can possible become "restoration"?
Illusion is stupid. Calm, command, frenzy - OK. And guess you trick people into believing you're not there when you make yourself invisible. But tricking yourself into believing there's light illuminating from you, and that makes it real? Tricking yourself into seeing in the dark? Tricking people into turning into stone?
Mysticism is at least honest that the only thing in common with these spells are that they're all mystical. Though that also makes it the most confusing and useless school, and that's why they removed it. Probably.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see where they decided to put the Mysticism spells - though with the removal of classes, I will no longer have to think of what school(s) to pick as my Major skill, and it will be a lot easier to just practice Illusion if Detect Life has moved there.

I think mark and recall(I hope their back) will be in conjuration.

Summoning is alot like teleporting enemies to aid you right?

Mysticism was my favorite magic school. The name and the spells that went with the name, the lore behind it (Psijiics) it made me feel as though my character was on another level of understanding an unseen world and more intune with its mechanics then most. A natural philosopher, long b4 her/his time.

And i was going to pick this as my main skill in Skyrim.

What was stated in the article was that the name of the school of magic "Mysticism" was redundant. Not useless. As they felt that Mysticism was redundant, they got rid of that branch magic, and shifted the associated spells into other schools of magic.
The pieces are still there for you to find, just not in the usual place.

Mysticism was a very cool Magic skill to take.

1. Life detection was a great spell

2. soul trap especially was good but should be moved to the new Enchanting skill.

3. Telekinesis was a ussles skill, 9/10 times there was really nothing ever out of reach in Oblivion making it pointless.

4. Absorb and reflect is very useful and fun to use.

5. Dispel was very awesome at removing annoying spells but should be moved into Alteration.

ONE PROBLEM IS THE COLORS OF THE DIFFRIENT MAGIC SKILLS, THEY WERE WHITE, BLUE, RED, GREEN, AND PURPLE-Mysticism, removing Mystiscim and taking its spells into other skills will be a stuped mistake, I will miss the Purple coming out of my Brentons hand : (

Mysticism is not going to be put back into the game no matter how much we discuss it.

Let us have a moment of silence and mourn, and be done with it.

Wisdom for the ages.