Yeah tnm CTDs for me to, I even told my followers to wait outside and then entered the test cell just to see if not having an NPC currently using it would prevent it but it didn't.

Not to sound too uninformed, but what does '=p' mean?

it was intended as a silly but friendly facial expression.

<---just spent a half an hour reading up on textual emoticons... (X_X)

That half an hour will get you far in life...

This thread has gone all quiet and stuff, but I think we're all like, cheering and [censored].

I have to admit, I have been following this thread like it was an episode of CSI. I am not a computer guy, and have only the shallowest understanding of the GECK and related programs, so I have nothing to contribute, but watching you guys gnaw at this bug over the last week has been fascinating. It's been open source problem solving in action - and it worked! You swarmed the thing like ants, everybody trying different things and making different suggestions until finally you chewed down past all the symptoms and found your way to the core cause.

Congratulations to all! And thanks! I look forward to being able to make a non-buggy mod in the future, thanks to your efforts.

Yeah I think everyone who tried to find this was extremely relieved when EmptyK chimed in.

To me it means many wonderful things beyond the bug fix, it means Bethesda does care and does listen when we find nuggets. That was more significant than the bugfix itself, it re-affirms the desire to help more.

I could not ask for more, this was a huge find all the way around.

Miax

When I saw his avatar, it was like I was 16 years old again and I just got my first license. Giddy with joy I was for all the reasons you mentioned.

I find unmentioned fixes and improvements in each patch. The changes have in each case resulted in improvements to my own game quality (and some of the changes required me to recode parts of Phalanx, which is a seperate thing). If I started listing them, it would take a while to remember them all.

It's good that EmptyK paid us a visit in here. But, when they don't visit, I don't think it means that they are completely ignoring something. In context of what I've seen in the past 3 patches, silence from them seems to have no implied meaning at all.

+1

Fix or no fix, we're part of a community.

Wow... I missed a lot while I was away. All I have to say is...

Huzzah!

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?2rqzidyjtnd (7.33 kb) are five alternate versions of the NavTest2 plugins which clearly demonstrate the NAVM's enabled states by equipping/equipping the given NAVMGlasses. Since ~tnm doesn't seem to work, we can check indirectly by watching Jericho.

• NavTest3 [Works].ESM: PASS
  
• NavTest3 [Works].esp: PASS
  
• NavTest3 [Works] (MasterUpdated).ESP: PASS
  
• NavTest3 [Borken].esp: FAIL <-- Invariably
  
• NavTest3 [Borken] (Fixed by MasterUpdate).ESP: PASS

You'll be immediately teleported w/ Jericho to TESTCELL and given what you need to hire him with all variants. With all but NavTest3 [Borken].esp the results were the same and no bug emerged. With the failing version, after leaving the cell if only for a moment, upon returning Jericho will no longer path around the desk whether or not the NAVM is enabled unless the plugin is ESM'ified. This is evident by either equipping or unequipping the TNM Glasses with Jericho following, as the [NAVM:00420420] (for TESTCELL "Test Cell" [CELL:01000EA6]) will, or at least should, have its enabled state toggled. With the other four plugins, Jericho paths after jumping over the table without the enabled states being tinkered with before and after leaving the test cell, but If you toggle the NAVM off, he behaves just like he does in the broken plugin and is stumped until you re-enable the NAVM. Anyhow the only difference at all among the plugins is the NAVM record itself, the "NVMI - Unknown" field of [NAVI:00014B92], and their internal ESM status. Anyhow, hopefully the glasses will serve as an adequate substitute for ~tnm.

~Show TestNAVM should show the NAVM's current enabled state.

This horrible plague of a problem has been our nemesis since we discovered it this past Spring. We didn't even have a workaround until like, early summer. The last half of this thread represents take 2 or 3 of our effort to make sense of this thing.

Thanks for taking the time to package this up JustinOther.

I think this is about the best team effort in figuring out a bug that I have seen thus far for the GECK.

Miax

Glad to be onboard! It's kinda fun. Here's hoping we can help pin this nasty bug down.

Assuming EmptyK works out what this is, I'd sure be curious to hear back from him about what was happening internal to the program to cause it, even if the explanation is a little over my head.

Back some months ago when I was trying to understand what was causing this, I did a navmesh like the one in the NavTest.esp series in the zipfile. But when I removed a door that the navmesh was passing beneath, it stopped it's breakage. But here in NavTest.esp no door is needed to get the break. This thing has been full of strange symptoms that never quite fit together to make sense. It's sorta like the mystery from hell that nobody wanted to be there, but it was.

Are you saying that you removed the teleport flag on the door in the TEST CELL and re-tested? I never tried that, but was thinking that the bug might be related to the telport (green) triangle.

Hmm... Maybe I 'll try that out too, just to see.

What? huh no uh.. It was simply a sliding vdoor not linked to anything. An interior door within the cell.

I would like SO not waste brain cells on it at this point... the symptoms and things that trigger it are whacko. EmptyK's got the tools to work through it, so things are going to go as well as they are able. Trying to judge symptomatically has been a cluster [censored]. I don't think you wanna know all the various things I've seen that make it happen.

Well, I tried it anyway, just because I was curious. And it still maifested without the teleport door. I am done with it, though. It has been, as you say, a cluster love-making session.

Check out this post I found in another forum. Poster: Gstaff. Posted yesterday:



http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=1038990&view=findpost&p=15064262

This sounds like a new patch might be a'comin'. It was not a PC forum but these patches tend to go out for all platforms at the same time, right?

You know how sometimes NPCs seriously hold their weapons upside down?

That can be accompanied by some very strange stuff. I just watched some NPCs that were doing this, and they seemed unable to get to their package destinations properly and it shouldn't have been related to the navmesh-bug as we know it (I was testing with an .esm-ified set of files). Some of the mobs seemed about normal, but some others were screwed up bad. They would walk over top of one another, I mean seriously climb over each others heads. Their pathing was messed up, they seemed to see a navmesh, and were walking in the right direction, but it was directly in that direction. They were trying to walk through walls to get there instead of using the hallways and stairs. I think that one mob might have thought it had arrived at its destination.

damn heh ..

Mmmmmm lets hope, but no that does not necessarily mean they will put out a patch for the PC.

But its good to have a positive outlook in any case!!

Miax

When we had that little file together, we didn't even have to beg them to take it.. EmptyK came right then.. faster than I for one could look to see who to send it to directly..

I feel like the only way we won't see a patch sometime that fixes it is if the problem turned out to be something like... so horrible.. or so integral to the program, that it was just hellacious beyond anything to fix. Here's to hoping its not that!

I am glad I bumped into this thread because I am working on a new world space and custom zones right now for my quest mod. I apologize if I am currently misinformed on the topic right now as I have yet to see the problem manifest itself. To me it almost seems as though the problem stems from some kind of red flag error of some sort that once set to true it turns the mesh off and keeps it that way. But it really makes no sense as far as I can tell that the navmesh gets red flagged during the second time you load the cell in game.

How in the world the actual devs aren't seeing this problem is intriguing.

Sorry I haven't been able to read all of the details on this thread. The way to fix the problem is to duplicate the cell and reconnect the doors ect?