And... it's working. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ktwwmyyynm2

It's a specific test, to see if he's working the navmesh. Followers usually follow the player without processing the the navmesh. You have to force them to seperate from you using a barrier or a corridor.

Before I download this .esp and everything, can you check this video? You have to do what I do in the video with the desk in order to test if the follower is pathing (you don't have to do the combat). The follower trailing along behind you is not enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d2rt1_qUMY

The part you need to see is 1:00 to 1:20 - - forcing pathing using the desk as a barrier.

Good evening JustinOther.

Does this mean that, in order to make our custom cell navmeshes work, we need to re-number the FormID's in FO3Edit and inject those records into Fallout3.ESM as well as making it a Master?

If I read correctly, we also need to choose a range that will not violate NavMesh ranges used by others?

I want to get an exact read on this process you and Tarrant are developing if this works, it needs an entire section or chapter in the Tome.

Thanks!

Miax

Jericho is walking around the desk, both before and after leaving the cell. I COC'd to MegatonEntrance after leaving him there waiting, COC'd back to your cell, told him to follow, jumped over the desk multiple times and watched him walk around it. :shrug: You'd probably be the best judge of how it's working, but everything seemed natural to me.
Hi Miax!

Tentatively, yes, but you don't have to toggle the ESM flag. The only reason for injecting the records is that EnableNavMesh and DisableNavMesh reference the non-persistent NAVM records by Form ID rather than Editor ID, so the script reference in an [01] plugin wouldn't check out in the event it was written to enable [01] forms yet loaded in [02]'s position as all the NAVM's would stick to their range becoming [02] forms. By injecting them into Fallout3.ESM, their Form ID's are locked in so the script can work regardless of the plugin's load position. The problem with injecting records into Fallout3.ESM is that if another plugin were to claim the same [00] Form ID's, one record or the other wouldn't be seen by the engine. With as many unclaimed [00] Form ID's as there are available, it's unlikely there would be any overlapping, but FO3Edit will automatically choose the same Form ID to start renumbering from every time if you multiselect non [00] Forms and "Change Form ID" then select Fallout3.ESM as the target plugin, so manually changing the Form ID's would be the way to go, preferably so they're consecutive. In Tarrant's mod's case they were 00666666-00666671. IF this works as intended and others were to implement it, maybe noting one's mod claims Form ID's 00xxxxx-00xxxxxx and/or some sort of thread would be in order to keep track?

Alright I'll check it now.

I started game fresh, ran into the cell, moveto'd fawkes to me. I saw strange behavior at that point - - he would stop being able to path to me, and then suddenly gain it back, repeatedly. I'd never seen that before, at that stage in the test.

Then I had him wait there, and I ran out of the cell, then fast travelled to 2 other locations and ran around, and then moveto'd myself back into the cell (to Fawkes). He was unable to path to me at all, then (this is the usual symptom at this point in the test sequence).

:(

Ya, I had been up all night when I wrote that. I finally went to sleep at 1PM today. I know that many people get a lot of useful results from the GECK. My mod (which never seems to get finished) is all about playability, like a DLC. I try to make dialogue and NPC intensive mods. So pretty much everything I do is impacted. I realize that is not the same for others. I was suffering from a case of immature impatient frustration - so I am over it know. I also realize that when I finish the mod, I can always set the ESM flag and it will work just fine, so... No I do not what the GECK taken out of circulation.

Try, at the end of the NAVMToggleQuestSCPT, removing the ResetQuest bit? It might not be stopping which would explaing the apparent toggling. Either that ot uncheck the "Start Game Enabled" flag? Also, I placed activators around places one has to pass to get into the cell, so try actually walking in rather than using the console. I can't see why your experience with it was different. Are you far enough fro Fawkes that he'll budge? From what I've seen, it looks like the following distance is made greater by your plugin.

I'll make a few revisions and link in just a moment.

Are you sure you're testing completely? By that I mean - - -

Step 1 - - visit the cell with the follower.
Step 2 - - park the follower in the cell, leave him there
Step 3 - - You leave the cell, travel around a bit.
Step 4 - - re-enter the cell, tell the follower to follow you, and then run directly to that wooden desk and jump across to the other side, and continue running straight to the far wall, without sidestepping or anything.

Yes, but I think I goofed when finalizing the plugin and left the quest looping as it was initially an object script. I messed something up, evidently, but he was walking around the table after leaving and coming back. Now, after coming back, he just stands there. I'll tinker with it some more and see if I can figure out where I goofed as it was actually working and now it's not.

IT'S WORKING!!!!!!!!!
Your method worked, JustinOther. I assigned new id's to all my new navmeshes, saved as an esm, put a trigger in the game to enable these navmeshes, and my npcs are behaving as they should. No freezing up when I return to their location via fast travel. It seems that new ids need to be be given to brand new navmeshes only, not cells that already exist or that you have modified.

This seems too good to be true.. haha.. need to test further.

Am I missing something, doesn't it work anyway if you save as an ESM?

Try http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?lvmhzc4zgqv. The NAVM's definitively will toggle on and off by running NAVMToggleQUST. To demonstrate, you'll be immediately given a pair of NAVM Glasses and teleported to the cell in question along with Jericho who'll be set as a teammate. Upon being given the glasses, they'll be equipped and all the NAVM's will be toggled on. Leave Jericho parked in there after running him around the desk, jumping over it or whatever it takes to see the NAVM's are in fact enabled and working. COC to somewhere else or fast travel, return, tell Jericho to follow and see what happens. Try equipping/unequipping the glasses and watch the difference. It's particularly noticeable in the cave area as he'll just stand in place until you equip/unequip the glasses again toggling the NAVM's enabled states.

For whatever reason, whether the NAVM's are enabled or not, Followers were getting hung up on the desk. I ticked the NavMesh Generation - BoundingBox flag for the desk REF and Opened/Saved in the GECK and now Jericho behaves the same after leaving/coming back and walks around the desk so long as the NAVM's are enabled.

Also, he was getting ...stuck in the door from the cave to the main room there, so I moved the door marker a little so that shouldn't happen anymore.

Anyhow, if the NAVM's just aren't popping any other way than by this injection method, you can toggle the "Start Game Enabled" boxes for GiveNAVMGlassesQUST to off and NAVMToggleQUST to on. After they're first enabled, there are four placed activators (3 inside and one outside at the door) that will run an OnLoad block ensuring all the NAVM's are enabled, just incase...

It should still work, even if left as an .esp. The only records that need to be injected for NAVM's to be accessible by a script are NAVM records, so no other form ID's would need to be altered to employ this method. Were your NAVM's problematic with your plugin as an ESM before using the injection method? Either way, if it has helped in any way then it's been time well spent.

Ok then... So I have a mod with some 10 new cells in it. Only two connect to the vanilla worldspace. Would I have to do this for every cell, or just the two that connect to the vanilla worldspace?

I downloaded the mod, unchecked most of my mods other than the DLCs, CASM and of course the modified Phalanx. Just as you planned, it teleported me to the phalanx HQ but I had to bribe Jericho to get him to follow me - no big deal. Got the Navm glasses and all that worked.

The turning ON and OFF of the navmeshes did indeed stop Jericho in his tracks in the HQ, but I don't get the same success of having him path around the desk to me. He doesn't ever seem to do it right. I entered and left the HQ through the Black Hole to the Wasteland several times. He will always follow me around closely, but If I do something complex like jumping over the desk. He will still get stumped as soon as I am more than a few triangles away on the navmesh.

I also tested my own mod to see if it was affected by the bug. I found the same error in my mod as a plug-in, which doesn't have injected records. I can confirm that Jericho will follow me closely through my custom cell, but will get stumped at the first complex pathing decision he has to make to get to me. So from my testing perspective this morning, complex pathing for NPC's is indeed still broken in standard plug-ins that we create.

Then I ran MasterUpdateMode on the mod-list, "masterfying" the load order and tested everything again. This time Everything worked perfectly as I would expect, and I didn't have to turn the Navmeshes on again. Jericho would path to me even after jumping across the desk several times. Even more importantly, he would path to me in my own mod across the metro posts multiple times too. So without any of the custom injected Navmeshing, MasterUpdate effectively fixed the Jericho's pathing problems in my own cell. I did enter and leave with him multiple times, had him wait in my cell while I left, did some things and came back. He still pathed perfectly.

Not sure what this means, but MasterUpdate seems to resolve all NPC pathing issues in custom cells (at least for me).

Should I alter the testing at all?

Miax

Everyone should keep in mind that this is exactly *the* part of the test that shows if a follower is processing the navmesh . Followers who are close to you and are on a follow package are trying NOT to look at the navmesh, and only really look if they realize they can't make it directly to you. It seems specific to something in the follow package.

(and edit: this characteristic of not looking at the navmesh while following closely seems like an excellent design idea to me, positively not a bug if anyone was wondering)



I'll try this in a bit, see what I can see from it.

Indeed, and it is exactly this behavior that doesn't work for while in your HQ (after turning NavM on and off per JustinOther's script), but works just fine after MasterUpdating the mod list. Something that MasterUpdate does fixes the pathing issue in your cell as well as mine. Its interesting to be sure

Miax

Here's what I did with the new .esp. Was this how I was supposed to test?

When I entered the game, I was moved to the cell, and so was Jericho. Glasses were equipped, and things were normal. I told Jericho to wait in the cell, and I ran out of it through the exit. Once in the wasteland, I fast traveled to 2 places and ran around a bit, and then ran out of the wasteland into my interior set of cells, ultimately to the one Jericho was waiting in. I released him from his wait, and he was not processing the navmesh. Equipping and unequipping the glasses didn't get him moving.

If you feel sure that you saw it work once, you'll wanna document exactly what sequence of events caused it. I tend to record my actions in video if I think I might get confused or the action happens too fast to always catch first time through (some of the follower stuff I made is like that).

Still testing, still unable to get the bug; and for the record, I've been able to get followers to follow me through to completely different rooms (not cells, mind you; and by follow me I mean I ran out of one room and into another, with a staircase separating us, before he decided to try and catch up, using the staircase, and around straight to me), and even jumping over desks, and they follow...

In http://www.freewebs.com/poha!/NavTest.esp, I brought Fawkes and Dogmeat into the cell "Cell Test," a cell with a load door located just outside vault 101. I tested to make sure the navmesh was working; they followed me upstairs, around a desk, and every other obstacle I had placed (although, if I jumped down from the second floor to the first, Fawkes had an impossible time of trying to get to me; like he knew the way, but there was an invisible collision box or something he could get past... very odd. Anyways...). I told them to wait, fast traveled several times, came back, and told them to follow. Again, they followed me just as before (including the Fawkes strangeness).

Mind someone else testing it? I'm at a loss, and don't appreciate the irony of the situation (I want to see the bug, but can't, everyone else doesn't want to see the bug, but does)...

Are you still using a cell with ~ 50 NAVM triangles? Try a cell with more NAVM then. I'm going to build a little cell and see if I can t duplicate what you see PoHa.

On a different note: Most of the talk here has been with followers. From my point of view the error occurs with any and every NPC and creature when going from a vanilla to custom cell and visa-versa.

Some mods don't do the problem. The mod that contains Princess Stomper's rivet city apartment cell does not do it, for example. The mod consists of a small cell with a small navmesh.

One of the possibilities is that there's a threshold of total navmesh/objects/stuff/something that the game is willing to take from a single .esp. At the point where that's exceeded, whatever it is, the game maybe decides to flush the mod's added navmesh down the toilet. Tiny mods may slip in under the wire, whereas a heap like Phalanx, well, yeah.




Oh yes. This is not a follower-only problem by any stretch. Its impact on followers is actually a bit less destructive than on NPCs who are using another sort of package (sandbox, etc, or an NPC that's supposed to have combat with the player). I've been using followers because I have a fast, clean test for them, which is me running and jumping over that desk in my level.

Back when we didn't know what was happening, I didn't even notice the problem in my level until I began to sandbox the followers there, and use travel packages inside the thing, and so on.

Thats also my experience. See my previous posts abiut the Pitt exterior and my dogs.

Agreed. That MasterUpdate so easily and readily solves this issue makes it the way to go. I guess it would have been nice to have an alternative, but with varying results, there's just no reason to keep a plugin an .esp for Fallout 3 save editing it in the GECK. That trick with enabling/disabling injected NAVM's could still come in handy for anyone with a custom cell which ends up changed (stuff moved around or new themes for a home), even if the new cell is introduced in an ESM.
Yes, I'm sure or I'd not have written it. I hadn't done anything differently than you described above regarding the testing method, so I'm at a loss. What seemed to really make the difference was ticking the NavMesh Generation - Bounding Box flag for the desk, but that the results seem to vary indicates ESM'ification is just the way to go. Has anyone found a disadvantage to having their plugin an ESM? I've only had one plugin negatively impacted by ESM'ifying it, my Refurbish [PL].esp. I'd set Tobar and every ref that made up the Dutchess Gambit up with a common "initially disabled" enable parent. As an .esp, the Dutchess and Tobar are absent until the enable parent is enabled, yet, after MasterUpdating it, a user found the Dutchess fully enabled yet Tobar was absent. o_0 Ticking off the ESM flag made the plugin work as intended. That's the one and only instance so far I've encountered where the plugin was actually better as an .esp.

Any time that the user must be able to adjust the mod's position in the load order, it must not live as an .esm in the midst of a bunch of .esps. The game will never allow an .esm to load after an .esp.

It can be what I've been calling a "stealth esm" along with all the other files in the load order and it's fine because its position among the other files can be controlled. Thats what FO3MasterUpdate does.

Phalanx is one mod which must be able to be moved around in the load order because of other people's mods making little changes that break it. Like, someone releases a mod that redoes all the monsters, but then the mod author also thinks it's smart to adjust Jericho's health, or something. Phalanx has to pwn that other mod or Jericho won't be Phalanx' version and the player won't be pleased.

Just make it a bona fide ESM and change its file extension too?I'm well aware of the concept, in fact I've implemented an inverted methodology for Oblivion (almost most every plugin is a false flag ESM w/o its ESM flag checked). I see the importance of being able to manipulate the load order, but you could always inform users that it's possible another plugin might go after the same records, botching Phalanx. If you employed the ESM/esp pair method, you could sidestep the issue, insisting your esp be loaded late. If you set the .esp's modified date to the future, it will automatically settle at the bottom. If one doesn't follow the directions or hasn't checked their load order in FO3Edit to detect conflicts, they kinda lose the right to complain, as I see it.That's more of a deficiency of the mod user than the nature of the file type. It's unfortunate more mods don't use scripts to make tiny edits to unique NPC's and leave their records alone for a mod that really needs them. I can see how it would be really frustrating to have your work needlessly undermined. At that, if I were in your shoes, I'd make the main module a real ESM (flag and extension) then make an .esp with a modified date in the future (Achievement Removers were modified 12-21-2012). Doing so should render the best of both worlds, ensuring your NAVM woes are dealt with and that your edits to followers aren't overwritten.