http://zh.fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Victor_Presper

How do we know that the NCR are really good guys? They insist on wiping out the BOS unless you are very diplomatic, they want to turn New Vegas into a police state, they enslaved 'criminals' by the scores to work on their railroads, they have wiped out at least two towns (The Squat and Bittersprings) and have no inhibitions about further destruction all in the name of progress. Has anyone actually talked to Aaron Kimball? The guy has 'Enclave Lackey' written all over him.

Before the war the Enclave were proficient as a shadow government and just because they were defeated in FO2 doesn't mean that they are all gone. How do we know that they didn't secretly take over the NCR and are furthering their goals under the flag of the two headed bear?

In the original FO3 (Van Buren) FOVB the main badguy was a rogue NCR scientist who wanted to continue his pet project which sounds suspiciously a lot like the unrealised goals of the Enclave. It would not suprise me if the "Broken Steel" of FONV features this maniac as the face of a sect of Enclave secretly running the NCR.

There is more evidence to be uncovered in this time-honored tradition of deceit and intrigue of the diabolical Enclave.

Considering there's absolutely no proof or hints of this anywhere in any released game, your theory is just that, a theory, with no evidence supporting it. Until we actually get even a small hint towards this in a released game (Which Van Buren is not), I see no reason to believe your theory.

well yeah...I admit it is just a theory. But you gotta admit it has a certain appeal...

Naw. Aren't ya aware that the NCR are hunting the remaining Enclaves like lion and meat?


Judging what Legate's response at the near end of the NCR storyline branch, it wasn't the first time the NCR sent a Diplomat to the Legion. As for the Brotherhood of Steel, something happen between FO2 and New Vegas that would cause an all out war in the West. I bet power tension and how the NCR saw BOS a bit closer to how the Enclave are in term of power and tech. That and the BOS bombed the NCR's gold reserve, making NCR money almost worthless.


Because keeping them in jail cost money if they don't do anything and killing them outright seem "evil". Better to just use the criminals for contribution and "paying" off their debt to society rather than letting them just sit in a jail cell.


There practically a hell lot of information in regard to Bittersprings. I supported the "miscommunication" story with the Superior being an idiot. The Squatters, if ya referring to Vault 15, they have a ending with lead to the Squatters being useful member of society.


Because NCR raided Navarro and become aware that there might be some (Ex) Enclave working within their organization. This lead to the saided man hunt.

Well killing Enclave in the field doesn't mean that members of the Republic are not actually furthering Enclave ideals IMO. I soppose the same arguement could be applied to the massacres being done without support from the upper powers of NCR giving the order.

The man hunt means nothing to me. The NCR being aware of infiltration doesn't mean that they were able to weed out all of the Enclave influence. The BOS kept a close eye on the Enclave during and after the events of FO2 and their decision to try to stop the NCR had a lot to do with a shift in power within the upper ranks of NCR. The corruption went in the direction of Enclave ideals. That can't just be a coincidence IMO.

The Enclave are experts at power plays and conspiracy. They would have sacrificed lesser members to clean the faces of more important politicians. Why do you soppose the BOS blew up the gold reserves? Where did NCR get all of that wealth really? I bet the takeover of Navarro was more of an inside trade than an actual acquisition. The place did get evacuated prior to the NCR assault leaving it virtually defenseless. The Enclave were operating under the NCR's authority and didn't want to leave all their cool toys behind. I am suprised the NCR doesn't bring in some vertibirds, they already manufacture second-generation power armor...

Enclave's ideal is simply that they are the purest Human to lead and control all land and everyone else is unpure and thus not worthy. Namely a xenophobic version of American Government.

NCR happen to base on the ideal of (corrupted) Democracy version of American Government, namely the one the US have right now, not to mention that this is base and thank to Vault 15's experiment of overcrowding and filling people with diverse ideologies and cultures. They don't need the Enclave for that inspiration. The good people of Shady Sand already has it.

BOS blew up the gold reserves during the war with NCR. This practically make NCR weak in term of economy and force it money to be set by water. It not because the BOS suspected of them being Enclaves. Its already mention that many of the Enclave that tried to integrate with government but many were caught and many on the run. Hell, Arcade's bad ending supported this man hunt on the Enclave.

As for Navarro, that just sitting gold for anyone to take. The fact that there aren't that many Enclave left to defend because a good amount of them were killed in the Oil Rig's destruction and the other amount move to East makes Navarro an easy target, whether there any Enclave in the office of NCR or not.

fair enough.

I still think it is a serious possibility that ex Enclave have power within the NCR. Dr. Victor Presper is my example of how such corrruption would affect the game. That is if we ever get to see him show up in future content of NV.

Until and if then it is just a juicy tabloidish theory of mine. Thank you for your input.

The greatest manipulators they have had no problems blending into normal society. I suspect the members of the Enclave who surivived the encounter with the Chosen One will have realized that the cause is lost for the moment and tried to blend into society as best they can so later on they may have an opportunity to accomplish the goals that the Enclave put forward.

*Puts Loremaster Helmet On*

[quote name='goris the scholar' date='09 November 2010 - 05:38 PM' timestamp='1289342320' post='16656915']
How do we know that the NCR are really good guys?
[/quote[

Who says they are, exactly? The NCR is a Government. Governments are neither good nor bad, merely comprised of the people that make it up. From the sounds of things, the NCR's upper echelon is one accustomed to wealth and privilege, but the people out on the sharp end of the stick seem to be no more "evil" then your average joe.

[quote]They insist on wiping out the BOS unless you are very diplomatic,[/quote]

That's because the Brotherhood and NCR are in a state of war. So Colonel Moore is enthusiastic about wiping them out. Given everything on her plate, I can't blame her for wanting one headache to go away.

[quote]they want to turn New Vegas into a police state,[/quote]

No, they want to secure New Vegas. Now granted, that part of the NCR ending I didn't much agree with, but as for the Strip itself I can't blame them. The place is a snake pit.

[quote]they enslaved 'criminals' by the scores to work on their railroads,[/quote]

Chain Gangs aren't uncommon. Hell, in the mid 90s there was a revival in the US of the practice. Arizona is the only state to still practice it today.

[quote]
they have wiped out at least two towns (The Squat and Bittersprings) and have no inhibitions about further destruction all in the name of progress.[/quote]

The Squat? Are you talking about Vault 15? The Integrated Peacefully Into NCR Society Vault 15? And Bittersprings was a Military Snafu.The game does not deny this.

[quote]
Before the war the Enclave were proficient as a shadow government and just because they were defeated in FO2 doesn't mean that they are all gone. How do we know that they didn't secretly take over the NCR and are furthering their goals under the flag of the two headed bear?
[/quote]

Well, outside the fact they ruthlessly hunt down anyone with Enclave ties, and the Remnants pretty much lend credence to the idea that the Enclave has all but died out on the West Coast?


[quote name='goris the scholar' date='09 November 2010 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1289348126' post='16657594']
Well killing Enclave in the field doesn't mean that members of the Republic are not actually furthering Enclave ideals IMO. I soppose the same arguement could be applied to the massacres being done without support from the upper powers of NCR giving the order.
[/quote]

How are they furthering Enclave ideals when the NCR actively includes Super Mutants and Ghouls? Hell, some of NCR's Rangers are Ghouls!

[quote]The man hunt means nothing to me. The NCR being aware of infiltration doesn't mean that they were able to weed out all of the Enclave influence. The BOS kept a close eye on the Enclave during and after the events of FO2 and their decision to try to stop the NCR had a lot to do with a shift in power within the upper ranks of NCR. The corruption went in the direction of Enclave ideals. That can't just be a coincidence IMO.[/quote]

Actually, the BOS/NCR clash had more to do with the fact the Brotherhood of Steel have their heads shoved so far up their hindquarters their piping oxygen through their navels. The NCR was acquiring Pre-War Tech, which put them in direct conflict with the Hoarders of the Brotherhood. And the Brotherhood wasn't keeping that close a watch on the Enclave, more like vice versa, seeing as how the Enclave showed up at one of their little outposts and slaughtered the caretaker.

[quote]The Enclave are experts at power plays and conspiracy.[/quote]

Yes. Masters of Subtly they are. The President monologues about his grand plan and John Henry Eden just cheerfully hands you some FEV to dump in the water supply "just 'cause." Also their welcome wagon at Navarro - "This is United States Military Property! Leave immediately!"

Subtle.

[quote] I bet the takeover of Navarro was more of an inside trade than an actual acquisition. The place did get evacuated prior to the NCR assault leaving it virtually defenseless. The Enclave were operating under the NCR's authority and didn't want to leave all their cool toys behind.[/quote]

Well, it's kinda hard to hide a large enough Military Force to take a fortified position before said fortified position has time to evacuate. Especially when they have air lift capacity.

[quote]
I am suprised the NCR doesn't bring in some vertibirds, they already manufacture second-generation power armor...
[/quote]

Source on that? The Vertibirds are likely seized Navarro hardware, and the only Power Armor I see the NCR parading around in are cannibalized Brotherhood suits - Which aren't Power Armor any longer, just large metal armor. I don't see them manufacturing their own Power Armor.

Hell, not even the Brotherhood can create their own Power Armor. Only the Enclave have the facilities to create new Power Armor, and even then its only in smaller quantities and at great resource drain.

NCR call it 'secure' but all I see is a tyrannical police state. Hunting down Enclave and using ghouls a frontline soldiers doesn't indicate that an Enclave agenda isn't being secretly forwarded. During the civil war there were slaves fighting for the South which wanted to keep slavery and mobs often allow a lesser minion to 'take the fall' to keep more important members out of jail.

If the NCR seized the remaining Enclave facilities then they can make new power armor. But you might be correct.

Edit: actually I just looked up what I thought was the Enclave reproduced armor and it turns out you are correct and that the armor I saw was actually Enclave armor after all. My bad.

I still highly doubt the Enclave is some kind of power behind the throne. The Oil Rig and Raven Rock are both smoldering ruin now. Two Presidents, and we don't even known if John Henry Eden had a VP or even a Congress he reported to (Given the command structure of Raven Rock, my guess is John Henry Eden was Dictator in all but name).

Who is left of Enclave Command of import? If they didn't go up in a Mushroom Cloud at the Oil Rig, then they got vaporized when Raven Rock self-destructed. What's left of the Enclave are small refueling stations, at best.




I don't think it's a question of manufacturing facilities as much as its technical know-how and available resources. Power Armor is extraordinarily difficult to produce, and the chemical compositions of the materials are likely not able to be recreated with run of the mill bathtub chems that the Wasteland can produce.

Just to make a handful of Hellfire Suits required the full attention of the Enclave scientific community, and they weren't all that advanced when you get right down to it.

NCR hunts down all Enclave remnants.

We don't, and they aren't. They're gray. Closer to white in their ideals, but I wouldn't really call them "good guys."



Mrh? The Squat? You mean the squatters in Vault 15? When do we hear about what happened to them? Because one of the Fallout 2 endings was them being peacefully integrated into the NCR in a mutually beneficial relationship and not wiped out.



I haven't. When do you get a chance to talk to him without getting shot at by his guards?

As Arcade reveals, the Enclave held out at Navaro for a while, but were eventually attacked and anihalated by NCR troops. Most of the straglers were either taken out by the NCR or Brotherhood troops.

the troops mean nothing to the Enclave Elite, the politicians who would simply join the NCR the way ex Nazis moved to the US after WWII. Nobody knows their neighbors dirty secrets. Besides badguys regularly kill their own minions so why would they care if the remnants were hunted down like dogs? They would just bide their time working their way up through the ranks until they had achieved the same kind of government power they weilded before the war.

Some of them were caught, of course, and dealt with. But where you find one Enclave senator there are probably like three more who are still getting voted for by unsuspecting citizens of NCR.

Well the NCR certainly isn't as good as it seems, while on my travels in the waste, quite alot of people complain about the NCR.
To be honest the Enclave is my favourite faction in the Fallout series, so I would like to find out they are still somewhat powerful after the events of Broken Steel.

The Enclave's only agenda is the rebuilding of the American government by themselves, they wouldn't waste their limited pure-human manpower by letting the NCR kill them, Navarro was there last outpost, the Remnants clearly say that any Enclave left were killed by the NCR.

The Enclave wants the wasteland to be theirs, on their terms. Just because the NCR's goals and the Enclave's were similar doesn't mean any collaberation occured. We all want world peace right, but we all don't vote for the same side.

Lets not forget that the BoS are not the super hero good guys as portrayed in Fallout 3.

To put it justly, the BoS are isolationist pricks much like the US was after WWI and before the bombing of pearl harbor. Only interested in preserving technology for there own means, and maintaining the status quo. The NCR wanted to work with the BoS, but they were not interested in allowing free trade of tech with the non-initiated masses. So the NCR, a fledgling democracy had a crazy group of super well armed radicals on their borders. That the two went to war makes a good deal of sense. No enclave intervention required.

Are there ex-members of the enclave in both the BoS, and NCR(legion as well)? Probably. But I think if whoever makes the next game, relegate the enclave to an easter egg or rumor. They were overused in FO2, and were just stupid in FO3. You can make a game without a GI Joe and Cobra faction(Autobots and Decepticons? Lion-o and Mum-ra?), New Vegas is proof of that. That you have to question who are the good guys at times means Obsidian did their jobs right.

Hmmm....I like where this is going.

I see that the Enclave is crushed. I also see that the Brotherhood is a mere hollowed oout shell of the power they once were. Characters like Dr. Presper show that Enclave corruption can rear its ugly head anywhere anytime even by another name. Even in the political power plays of NCR...IMO the NCR cause is vulnerable to Enclave infiltaration. It is what the Enclave are sopposed to be "Shadow Government Puppeteers". Whenever they appear en masse they are exterminated just as quickly, typically by whatever super powered weapon they have cooked up recently.

The similarities between the Brotherhood and Enclave might make them interchangeable in the eyes of the common wastelander. Do the NCR really distinguish between the two? One wears power armor and parades around on some selfish crusade crushing all resistance and so does the other. Only Lone Wanderers, Chosen Ones and Vault Dwellers and the occasional Courier give a mole rat's @$$ which one is which.

Yeah but they don't care about "ruling" the wastes, they want to rebuild their American government, the NCR hunted down a lot of Enclave refugees and forced those who had not been founded into hiding outside NCR territory. The fact that they constantly get destroyed is just poor writing, in Fallout 3 I mean, the BoS should have both less troops and worse gear. They see themselves (and correctly so) as the legitimate owners of America and want to kill everyone so they can begin rebuilding. They don't infiltrate for anything other than maybe gathering intelligence.

Also, there are NO Enclave in the Brotherhood, the Brotherhood not only joined in the hunting down of Ex-Enclave personnel after Navarro was destroyed but also only let outlanders join their ranks on very explicite and rare circumstances.

I don't think there really is any 'good guys' in the world of Fallout. Even the Followers of the Apocalypse have done bad things in the past to get what they want. The New California Republic is just like any democratic republics in real life, they offer relative stability and political freedom in exchange for corruption and imperialist tendencies. They are just another shade of grey like everyone else. But they are the lighter shade.


The NCR's hatred towards the BOS is totally justified. The Brotherhood of Steel started the war in the first place since they think that anyone that is not part of them are 'unworthy' of technology. The NCR has tried to be diplomatic with them but things didn't work out. Plus if it wasn't for you, the BOS have no intention of negotiating peace either.


Not anymore then Mr. House or the Legion is going to do. Plus the NCR is actually a democracy, after the region is safe, they will likely allow the people of New Vegas to select elected representatives to join the NCR Congress. Plus in world full of raiders, mutant monsters, and that everyone can own laser weapons, is there anyway to have a functional government that isn't a semi police state?


The members of the Powder Gang are actually dangerous criminals that deserve their sentence. They are not political prisoners like the ones in the Gulag. Plus the just of convict labour is legal even under real life international law.


No they did not. The cannon ending for the Squat at Vault 15 is that they peacefully joined the republic. Even in the worst ending for the Squat, the NCR still didn't invade then. If the NCR wanted to, they can easily overwhelm the Vault and take it by force. But they actually preferred to do it the peaceful and dipomatic way.

As For Bittersprings, the situation is just like the war with the BOS. The Khans are by no means an innocent group. They have been enemies of NCR before the republic was even founded. If it wasn't for the Vault Dweller's intervention in the first game, they would have wiped out the NCR in it's early years. Even after the republic was founded, the Khan have spent years trying to overthrow their government and sabotage them from within (using the Vault 15 Squat as a front to attack NCR's supply lines). After the NCR expansion reached Nevada, what was the Khan's first reaction? "So, the NCR is moving into the area, this is awesome! Lets rob, murder, pillage and [censored] their civilian settlers as they struggle to get a foothold. Just like we did in the good old days! On top of that, lets sell highly addictive drugs and make the wastelands an even worse place to live!" But to the Khans surprise, the NCR refused to just sit there and take it like they did back when they were still Shady Sands. They fought back and attack their main settlement. The NCR's actions were regrettable, but a society that lives by the sword, dies by the sword. You can't make a decision to be raiders and thugs and cry foul over the consequences when your innocents get caught in the cross-fire.


Which dialogue are you talking about? Will you mind clarifying?


It is possible that the Enclave still exist within the NCR government. But there is not evidence to support that. Under the Burden of Proof, we are not called upon to prove a negative. Therefore until you can show evidence that the Encalve are in control of the NCR, the default position is that it isn't the case.

It is really sad for me to see that people who consider the Yes Man/Independent path to be the ‘best’ ending for New Vegas so desperate to find reasons to hate the NCR. So far on this site and the NMA forum I have seen people making claims about how the NCR is communist, or that they are secretly using slavery, or how they are worst then the Legion, and my personal favorite, about how the NCR is bad because everyone should become tribal… etc. Anything that ranges from examples of ‘Did not do research’ to ‘Blatant lies’. Can’t the NCR haters find any legitimate points to support their debates?

I prefer simpler reason like, The NCR destroyed Navarro or They imprison, and most probably have executed, refugee Enclave personnel by claiming that they're war criminals. I personally don't care what there goal is, there against the Enclave so I fight 'em.

I will admit that I myself is a bit confused by NCR's harsh treatment of the Enclave survivors. After all, the republic have almost little to no contact with the Enclave at all. So why do they be spend so much resources to hunt down them down? If I run the NCR, I would offer total amnesty, and high salary to Enclave survivors in exchange for them working for me and only execute the top officials. After all, this is an excellent opportunity to recruit highly trained soldiers, officers, doctors, and scientist. People like them are really hard to find, even in the more developed parts of California.

But back to the NCR hunting down Enclave refugees. In real life, even today Israel and the US are still hunting down Nazi war criminals. The Enclave is even worst then the Nazis in that they performed torturous experiments on both their own citizens (The Vault Experiments) and innocent wastelanders (The kidnapping of the Arroyo villagers), worst of all, they attempted and almost succeeded in performing the worst genocide in human history for TWO times! Like I said before, a society that lives by the sword, dies by the sword. If you act like a bunch of genocidal Fascist, then don't expect people to treat you kindly when you are at your weakest.

Didn't you answer your own question there?

Since the Enclave came close to exterminating the NCR in Fallout 2 (without the NCR even being aware of the threat), the NCR leadership was probably a tiny bit peeved at the Enclave.

Having said that, the NCR has made a habit of working with some of the worst scum in the wastes (mercs and raiders) when it suits their purposes and advances their agenda........so I wouldn't be surprised if some Enclave personnel made it in to the NCR ranks.

Only the traitors would ever work for the NCR! But yeah, I can understand the NCR hiring Enclave people, just like the US did with german scientists after WWII Wehrner von Braun was in the SS and used slaves to build underground rocket silos but 20 years later he was in mission control guiding Niel Armstrong.

Maybe a similar thing happened to some Enclave techs, but the common troopers and most others had no such chance, they could try and hide in the NCR under different identities but that's about it.