In my time on these forums I've seen President Kimball, General Oliver and even Colonel Moore receive little but bile and apparently the honour of being the cause of every problem in the NCR ever; a great feat in the four years that they've held their positions but that's why your here. I just want some of you NCR types to explain to me why these individuals are apparently as useless, evil, bumbling, corrupt and the source of original sin as they are made out to be.

They aren't evil and only Kimball and Oliver are bumbling due to there horrible stragety for the Mojave Campaign. That's it. Moore does a good job rapping things up to me.

Because the faction is meant to represent the pros and cons of the rule of law and the pre-war structure of society. Bureoucracy and "politicians is dumbs" are unavoidable aspects of this theme.

And you see that's where you and I would have to disargee? What exactly about their stratergy is horrible? Are the fact that every single soldier doesn't receive the best kit soley thier fault? The NCR still needs to conscript and rush troopers to the field after only two weeks they have never been in a position to launch a counter offensive.

The NCR didn't win the First Battle of Hoover Dam, well technically they did but they certainly gained nothing; the Legion attacked, they lost the Dam, the Legion were defeated, they took back the Dam. Both sides suffered immense casualties which the NCR still appears to be recovering from even by 2281 and Oliver's a bad General for not sending his forces against the Legion? Oh wait his men mockingly call him, "Wait-and-see Oliver" so I guess he must be a bad General right?

As for Kimball we barely even know anything about the guy so I don't get where people get away with saying all these things about him.

The NCR is useless, the Enclave is the best choice for the rebuilding of America, commie mutants have no place in the land of the free.

Moore let's her hate for the Brotherhood (used to be a ranger, but got injured in the BoS/NCR wars) cloud her judgement sometimes. But she's not bad at all, or even incompetent.

Oliver is a complete prat and a svck up to Kimball (why he got General). He wants to put the rangers on the dam instead of on the ridge where they would be much more effective, all because he's in a Rivalry with Hanlon and doesn't want to follow the Chief's suggestions.

"Kimball's Kimball, don't which end is his ass or his head." Kimball is a corrupt, [censored] politician who would rather keep Bhramin Barons happy even though he could quickly crush the Legion if he let the majority of the NCR army as well as the heavy Troopers and Vet Rangers focus on the Dam. He deserves the assassination if playing as Legion.

Mr. Enclave, what is it with these unexpected sympathies for our greatest enemies recently :blink:

In all fairness, the Enclave did kind of bring it on themselves with Richardson's whole "Exterminate the Neo-humans" campaign.

Gathering intelligence :spotted owl:. I just don't think that they get a fair rep even from NCR fans, seems to me that Oliver is a "bad General" for not wanting to get his troopers killed.

Hey wait a minute, where do you get away with questioning me, you don't even kill all NCR on sight



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Kimball and Oliver are both merely incompetent. Yes, they are troublesome and worthy of scorn, and yes they bring insult to everything the NCR has accomplished and sacrificed. However, Kimball was elected legally, so while he may be a nepotistic moron, he's at least somewhat harmless. I doubt he'll be reelected. Oliver is more of a problem, but with the Rangers still strong and the Dam won, I doubt he'll keep a position he's unworthy of.

Colonel Moore is a above reproach though. She's a war Colonel that came up the hard way, and she was carrying out a wartime posting in a manner fitting of an officer of her rank. Yes, she would have been better off in charge of a combat force in the field, but Oliver (to me) was trying to discredit her by handing her a job she really wasn't meant for. Yet she did well enough, and while her operations didn't come out all gold, she didn't **** it up either. Honestly, if Moore gets a few more years to learn the other side of being a Colonel (ie: politics) she'll do outstandingly well. She'll stand by her men and her nation come hell or high water, and if you go against her you'd best be praying to your gods for mercy, for she will have none.

Moore has her failings. She is not wired for politics, and thinks of handling things through the direct application of overwhelming force, preferably from behind but front on if she must. This is understandable, since she's a warfighting Colonel cut from the same cloth as Patton. This clouds her view and narrows her options, but it can be worked with. A good time as a Colonel in position that make her learn to take a more velvet-gloved route would work that out of her and turn her into a General to be feared.

:bolt:


:P Just the politicians.
NCR military is to be kept alive as Vegas needs their money. And I must say I feel bad for the common NCR trooper. Dragged here all those miles just to win money for the brahmin barons? I know wars more justified.



P.S. Oliver is not a bad general for not arranging a massacre at Hoover Dam, but his lack of insight causes more and more NCR casualties when Legion can penetrate NCR frontlines without anyone knowing. Sometimes a swift, brutal act will save more lives in the long run, like nuking Japan in WW2.

Nepotism? What because he appointed Oliver? Do we even know that that is nepotism, I would again like to know why Oliver gets so much scorn, the idea that he endangers his men's lives for the sake of his own glory seems out-of-character given what we do seem of him, going down fighting and all. I'm sure Hanlon would be vital on the frontlines.

My point is that all we have from the people in the Mojave are personal interpretations, not facts. What we see of Oliver is in-fact someone very proud of the NCR, not some glory-stealing pencil-pusher - it only stands to reason he earned his position to be appointed General.

And for focusing so heavily on the Dam at the expense of other NCR positions. And where does the Legion end up launching its main attack?

Oliver may have handled the actual battle at the Dam poorly (I don't think there's enough evidence to know for sure either way) but in the end he managed the overall war effort in the Mojave competently given the constraints of his position.

Oliver is a bad general because he only cares about massing troops at Hoover Dam,leaving everywhere else defenseless.

But then again i'm not an NCR fan

whatever floats your boat buddy

We actually hear of NCR bunkers being built of concrete along the Colarado, we just don't see them in-game for some reason. Also, no [censored]. Where's you think the Legion is most likely to attack? Cottonwood Cove? Any army amassed at Cottonwood Cove would be spotted in the very early stages by the NCR Ranger Camp on the hill very close by and then soldiers would be sent closer to deal with it.

Kimball's main mistake is that he's responsible for the lack of resources and the bureocratic tie-ups within the entire system. It was HIS idea and HIS campaign to spread out in all directions, grabbing for more territory. Baja, New Vegas, the Divide and any other fronts the NCR is facing that we don't know about, all at the same time? His campaign. Instead of focusing on Baja, taking over and then moving on, he's insisted on spreading too thin. Thus, the NCR as a whole lacks resources. Not enough armor to give to every soldier, not enough time to train them all, and not enough people to handle all the administrative duties, so as a result, the whole system is slowed down and the effectiveness of the entire nation is reduced.

Oliver himself hasn't neccesarily done anything wrong, but he's underqualified. It's stated that Colonel Hsu SHOULD be general, but Oliver got the position instead because he's friends with Kimball. The result is that we have an under-qualified general leading the army, but you may choose to blame that one on Kimball himself rather than Oliver. Other than that, Oliver seeks glory. He's ambitious, and his ambitions have brought him to the position of general, but is being ambitious a good qualification? Not really. Oliver is just out for glory and according to statements in game, it can be concluded that he's envious of the glory and praise Chief Hanlon received for his brilliant plan for the First Battle of Hoover Dam, and thus Oliver's plans for the Second battle aren't so much based on what would be the BEST strategy, but rather what would make him and his heavy trooper units look the best.

Moore? Nothing wrong with her, really, when it comes to her effectiveness. She does her job, it's just HOW she does her job that many hate. She's a soldier and nothing but, and addresses all issues that come to her desk as war situations. The result is that her approach to dealing with foreign countries is often "kill them all." She wants you to kill the King and Pacer, she wants you to wipe out the Great Khans, she wants you to wipe out the Brotherhood of Steel....really if you follow her orders to the dot, you'll end up killing everyone. It's also worth mentioning that if you follow Crocker's advice and consult Hsu on how to deal with the Kings rather than Moore, she'll see to it that Crocker loses his job. So we do know that she's at least spiteful and petty to those that don't follow her direct orders (even if the guy isn't technically under her command).

I don't know, Kiimball's been President for what 4 years? He only inherited the NCR from his predecesor, I'm not going to begrudge him personally if he didn't replace every single official to weed out corruption. Do we know he personally sent the Rangers to Baja - sounds more like an Oliver decision really, I know he's the Commander-in-Chief but so's the President of the US and they don't interfer in the actual campaigns, you know what I'm saying? - and besides, so one person says there's nothing in Baja worth the Rangers, what do they know? Could be on special ops or anything, certainly didn't appear to be short of them in the Mojave anyway.



Interdepartmental rivally is common in every army, I still don't believe - given what we see of Oliver - that he would put his own men's lives - you know the ones he's trying to make look good - at stake just so he could [censored] the Rangers over. Yeah he's ambitious and wants glory but under-qualified? I don't know, I still think him holding his, as you mentioned above, under-equipped and trained soldiers back to be a plus and a sign of level-headedness not lack of leadership.

Well the only answer I have for that is I'm afraid you're digging TOO deep and won't get an answer. We can ask why all day, but the devs can't write up lore to answer the why's all day because they had a schedule and a deadline. We could ask why Raul changes his name or why Boone found Carla attractive, and while they might be able to produce an answer, it would also create more questions.

You can check the wiki page for Kimball, but that's all you'll find. You have to realize there does have to be a cut-off point where Obsidian stops writing lore and starts putting everything in place, so I'm afraid that lore-wise, all we're given are statements that assure us that Oliver is underqualified, over-ambitious and undeserving of his position, whereas Kimball is responsible for the Mojave campaign (and possibly others).

You're asking for the "why" when you hear statements like "Oliver is underqualified" and you expect to hear a story that shows an example of him being underqualified. Unfortunately there isn't one, but the fact that the devs included such statements by NPCs stating that he is shows that it's their intention for Oliver to be underqualified. Simple as that, really.

The NCR tries to make the Mojave a better place. Trying is not enough. They try to look good because they fight the legion, but in fact they're corrupt as hell.
The NCR may have good thoughts in their mind, but they're corrupt as well. The Legion or The Enclave maybe do bad things, but they're moving forwards instead of trying to move forwards.

I guess, I do usually realise this mostly. I mean sure they put the quotes in but we always have to question our sources right?

Col. Moore is what the NCR needs the most. She is willing to destroy the Khans, the Brotherhood, and the Omertas. Taking out the garbage is a good thing.

So a colonel who embodies the whole NCR-is-stretching-itself-too-thin is the person the NCR needs? If she was in charge, the NCR would have way too many enemies and too many dead soldiers.

Not really, she just doesn't want the NCR to be a [censored]. The Khan's have plauged the NCR since Fallout 1 back when it was just a tiny village in the [censored]-end-of-knowhere trying to mind it's own business, and the Khan's think they have any right to complain. The King is just a genuine case of minunderstanding, all be it from a radical, anti-NCR King member. The Brotherhood? Why should she even believe peace with them is possible given everything, indeed I have to question how a single chapter but no others is exempt from the war, are the Mojave Chapter just deserters now for helping the damn enemy not get destroyed?

Yeah. Moore is really a good officer. She's a competent warfighter and unlike some, she follows her civilian leaders even when she disagrees with their decisions. She may not necessarily be as tactically brilliant as Hanlon, but I'd rather have her under me than him since at least she won't actively try to sabotage my victory.

Now, Oliver... His biggest problem is that he's trying to end the war in one stroke to outdo Hanlon. He's trying to get glory and victory, without realizing that glory will *come* from victory. The only reason the Legion is such a big threat is because Oliver is just sitting back letting the Legion come to him, ceding the initiative. What he should be doing is launching a large and multi-pronged assault on Legion positions. See, the Legion is a force that can only beat the NCR when it's on the offensive. All those Frumentarii spies and other shenanagins are only really useful to soften up the NCR's fixed positions, rather than to interdict a fast-advancing army. The Legion's political structure is built entirely on Caesar being unbeatable - to such an extent that Caesar had to have Graham lit on fire and thrown down the grand canyon to show his men that failure wouldn't be tolerated. Heck, the Legion doesn't even seem to know what to do in the face of defeat, given how they pulled back for two whole years after the first battle.

Breaking the myth of Legion invincibility with a coordinated, massive offensive would send NCR morale skyrocketing and cut Legion morale off at the knees. It wouldn't even take that much - if one man, no matter how awesome, can do it, that should tell you guys just how precarious the legion's position is in the Mojave. Unfortunately, Oliver is incompetent in the field of warfighting.

Col. Moore is a fine officer.