Could not agree more.

Maybe I am missing something as this is my first fallout game. Is there something from previous games that has instilled this culture of good vs evil maybe? I hope that's the reason so many people seem so concerned with morals, helping 'the people' (whatever that means) and who the good guys are in this dog eat dog world of instant death. Otherwise I don't really get it.

Really? NCR troopers care about and want to better the lives of fiends, great khans, viper gangs, etc etc? Those are people of the wasteland.

Yep. Easier to shoot them when they're standing still.

Well

F1: had Good and Evil, but it was reasonable
F2: Slight shades of grey in most cases, a little black and white
F3: Good Vs Evil
F:NV- Grey Vs Grey

All the FO's tagged your actions as the good, the bad and the mecenary however most factions were just towns in the first one..
FO1 A choice of greedy person A: looking for open but wild and corrupt societies, or person B: extremely tough and forceful but more ordered communities.

In FO2 larger states emerged each looking to set things right in their own way, some where evil, some good but..
The major cities / societies were just after staying alive and coming first in the pecking order.

FO3: Few were any more evil or good than 1, and it was up to you to act up.

All the games had a evil "baddy" though, this was who you faced down at the end and stopped, letting everyone else left alive decide their own fates..

So the answer is yes and no.

Anyone who expresses a willingness to better their lives is included, so yes. I can't recall Fiends doing that. Without knowing the Courier, they shoot at her, no chance for conversation at all. "Hi, hello, I was just passing by, how you doin?" If a group of people have gone psychotic and won't even talk, how can they be helped? Same with Viper Gangs. I can't tell you how often I wished that someone would just let me walk by their camp without shooting at me. I wasn't being aggressive to them or bothering them at all. So ok, maybe they're nuts too? Since it's a game, I can imagine just rounding up these groups and disarming them and getting them treatment but the writers didn't write it that way.

My knowledge of the Khans is only from FNV so I can't discuss their earlier FO experiences but I can see a willingness to improve their lot with the younger members coming up. Papa Khan has an understandable bitterness that he can't get past but Regis is willing to ally with NCR for the greater good. Jack and Diane are willing to make medicinal chems once Jack is taught how to make them. This is a good sign for them. My Courier arranges things so they have the best ending possible for them in the game. They all live and move on to better things. It's the only time I gain Infamy in the game. I don't believe the NCR are sainted but they aren't satan either. It was the best possible choice for my Courier.

As I always say, they have a idiot general and coloneol Moore doesn't want things for the good of the people but the rangers, troopers, and coloneal hsu do. In the end that's all that matters

Can some explain to me how general Oliver was an idiot?

Because he's a glory hog with no concept of the word 'Tactics' save throwing men at the problem. Also, he refused to make any offensive maneuvers. Take Nelson for example, had he sent 1st Recon to various points around Nelson, they could have picked off every Legion troop there. Instead they have to rely on The Courier to play babysitter.

It is getting old I agree....but let 'em have their debates. The forums are pretty slow anyway.

*popcorn*

Not trying to be deliberately combative, but how does this illustrate how NCR troops and officers want to help fiends, viper gangers, and khans better their lives for them (poor dumb dears they need someone to tell them how to live).

To answer the OP,

Depends on how you look at it.

The way I see it, their ideas are good, but most communities in Vegas don't want NCR rule. Now this wouldn't be a problem if the NCR decides to just leave them alone, and that's where they go wrong, they annex communities that don't want to be annexed. Sure you get to vote, but I don't think you get to vote on your own independence, as in your community leaving the NCR.

well said, Martyr, well said.

nah, I don't like the NCR for two reasons:
- They want to take over the Mojave, even though they cannot protect it
- They are backstabbers, because they want you to assassinate Mr. House even though they signed a treaty

Way I see it he did the right thing. Pretty much everyone forgets that Caesar attacks Hoover Dam head on. Caesar sending people to attack NCR's flanks (Niption, search light) could have spelled doom for NCR if Oliver gave in and sent troops to reinforce the towns. As well as attacking Cottonwood Cove would have left the Dam wide open.

If anything Caesar is the idiot for not taking advantage of that. Oliver believes Caesar will attack the dam in full force again (He was Right). Caesar should have invaded the Mojave by means of Cottowood.

I say Oliver is a Gambler betteing on Caesars fixation on the Dam and his need for glory by taking the Dam. Seeing as its New Vegas having a Gambling General seems right.

I wouldn't say that Richard Grey was any more evil than Caesar or House.

Anyway, I find the NCR to be the closest thing you're going to get to a good government in the wasteland. It has corruption in it yes, but where there's power there will always be corruption. I wouldn't call them good, but I most certainly wouldn't call them evil either.

I know, I never really saw him as evil, I did see the Leutenant/ however the hell you spell it as evil. But Grey was...well....grey. :laugh:


He wasnt killing for killings sake, he was trying to save the world as he saw fit, in a way he was right, and he was broken hearted when you show him his failures. A true evil man would keep on. I feel this shows Grey, despite monstrous appearance, had a heart.

I always forget about good old Lou. Yeah the Lieutenant was a bit of a "Wahahahaha I'm evil" kind of dude, but he was voiced by Tony Jay so...

I would like a sort of house situation where the NCR protects the mojave but doesnt really control it. Where a select few people who had lived in the mojave and who are capable, are chosen to control the mojave. The NCR leaders are too far away and too corrupt and to incapable to rule the Mojave

You'll need to speak with the writers. I get good Karma for getting rid of a Fiend. That's the game. I've not had a conversation with a Viper Ganger; do they want to be helped? I've seen the NCR try to do good things for all kinds of people and they've sent me out on a multitude of tasks to do good things for people who want or need to be helped. Is there a quest where the Fiends, Vipers, etc., ask for help? The NCR will ally with the Khans. Maybe the writers can tell you they don't want to help these other groups. All I see is a willingness to help someone who isn't shooting at you and they clearly say "the people" when they speak about helping the Mojave.

Sure the NCR isn't pure evil but are corrupt which is 10x worst.

Meh, I dislike them, corrupt, foolish leaders and disolousioned civilians. I could talk for ages but did that in the first debate thread.

I voted simply good for the people. neither good nor bad was not an appropriate choice because they are both good and bad.

It may be a revelation for most folks, but they are simply people; subject to the same human foibles as all of us. The limiting, or perhaps more exact, delimiting factor is that they are a republic. Unlike organizations like the Khans and Legion who are controlled by a small group or single entity, the NCR is tempered by committee.

One only needs to look around at N.Korea or Africa to see this political theory in action in our daily lives.

Perhaps it can be somewhat summed up this way: Humans are generally good on average. This is especially true when they are being observed by those to whom they must answer (governance by the governed) and by a Deity when they are not :spotted owl:

NCR is only interested in power (at least, the top officials are). They will take as much land as they can, even if it is already controlled by a morally correct government. Also, just how 'democratic' is it when many NCR citizens live in areas that keep them from making difficult travel (risking their lives in the wastes) just to vote. I'm sure that only citizens living in highly populated NCR controlled regions have a reasonable opportunity to vote, but that does not properly represent all citizens of the NCR.

House is even in the grey but he's a lot nicer than the NCR. Shoot, he even states that he wants to work with the NCR, but realizes that he can't because NCR wants to crush him. NCR is the instigator. They also don't even take good care of their own citizens. They prefer protecting those who have more money (brahmin barons) while trading caravans get ravaged. NCR is much closer to being evil than it is good.

like i said before.
beatrix and marcus pretty much sum up the ncr.
and yes this is easily gonna turn into another debate but at least it gets the forums going.