Heroes or thieves?

NCR does a lot of things right like trying to make Vegas democratic or preventing women from being slaves by the Legion.

However, they tax citizens and attempt to use the Khans as cannon folders at the Second Battle of Hoover Dam. In addition, they massacred lots of innocent people including children in Bitter Springs. Seems to me they discriminbate against the Great Khans and Super Mutants.

OP, how can we do any thing? This thread presents no thesis for either claim. This thread cannot rationally be discussed unless you present more to us than three words.

Neither.

Allow me to give a thesis then.

On one hand, you have NCR as heroes. The NCR is one of the few stabilizing forces for civilization in the Wasteland. How good are they at their job? The Brotherhood of Steel went ALL OUT against them in their own backyard and eventually got their butt handed to them. NCR began as a Vault-based society and they managed to turn the freakish social experiment into something that actually has the potential to rebuild humanity.

It's a liberal democracy that wants to rebuild the Old United States. It has a constitution similar to the Old World United States. Heck, it even has railroad technology - the first sign that the United States may eventually be able to be crossed by people. There's also a nice bit of "do not **** on the bear" with the fact that NCR isn't remotely a wimp.

If you mess with NCR - Brotherhood of Steel or Great Khans, they will throw you down.

OTOH...

NCR is also a force that doesn't really seem to honestly CARE that much about the people it attempts to bring under their wing. They seem to assume everyone SHOULD be a part of NCR and if you're not part of NCR you're either an ignorant tribal that needs to be "re-educated" or you're just an enemy who needs to be wiped off the face of the Earth. They actively try to colonize New Vegas so they can justify their takeover and start forced settlements despite the fact that the Mojave is already inhabited.

Hell, it's obvious they actually hold the inhabitants of the Mojave in outright CONTEMPT - their soldiers frequently deriding them and saying they shouldn't have known to mess with them. Mister House may be a tyrant but he's right that NCR has no claim to either Vegas OR Hoover Dam (which Mister House brought online). The Brotherhood of Steel did the same with Helios One, only for NCR to attack them and seize it.

Just to point out, NCR/Shady Sands isn't a Vault based society per se, they came from Vault 15,yes, but the citizens in the Vault went their own ways. Some took it's G.E.C.K. and founded Shady Sands, some went off and became the raider gangs The Vipers, The Great Khans, and The Jackals. (I may be missing one raider tribe)

Vault 15's social experiment wasn't as freakish as most, it's experiment was converging peoples of a myriad of races, creeds, genders, and religions together and seeing how they all got along. Either way, the Vault opened at some point, and the denizens left to find their own way. (And if you look at the global map, Shady Sands isnt built on or ran at any time from Vault 15. So it cannot be technically a Vault based society, at this point in the series, given how large Shady Sands has undoubtedly grown over the years, it's like any 'pure' blood has become convoluted with the 'tainted' blood of Wasters.

I wouldnt say that there Heroes but there certainly not thieves. BTW Bitter springs was a miscommunication. Also NCR does alot for its people if you do the NCR sheriff for Primm they take damn good care of it.

They're government, which is a little of both.

As with real life, it depends on who you are.

So, none of the above.

You forgot an option. Both.

They abandon the town to fend for itself if there is any other ending other than an NCR victory.

Thieves disguised as heroes.

Yes excluding that though. Why would they protect one town when there being pushed out of the region anyways? They cant protect the town if they lost.

They're a force of and for good but they're not heroes: they're not perfect and infallible.

They are Heroes!

People need to get over Bitter Springs. It was a mistake yes but it is not the norm. They don't go around massacring people that get in there way like some other factions do. They are brining a democratic, capitalist and lawful civilization to the wasteland. All they ask in return is Taxes.

I know some people hate taxes. I hate them as well, 41% of all the money I make goes to taxes and I live in a country with so many nut bars out there that want it to be much higher than that. Thank god they lost the last election!.

Taxes go to things like, clean water, education, police and health care and military. All things NCR needs and people want.

People say well they are corrupted. What government does not have corrupted people in it? "corruption, corruption never changes."

Corruption can also saves itself from the people. Corruption keeps things out that you dont want to hear and they tell you what you do want to hear. Which is good and bad. NCR isnt heroes but there getting there.

Thieves pretending to be heroes. They take everyones money, and then do nothing for the people they took it from.

We don't know if NCR is keeping the news of Caesar from the rest of NCR. Granted we don't see NCR reporters running around but I doubt they can stop the news from getting back to California.

I don't think that counts as corruption. I don't think the public needs to know every little detail in war. Can't go into real world examples, can't name names but some people. Lets just say they are a union of countries with a HQ in New York thought it would be a good idea to post their attack plans on the internet in advance of the attack. That was just stupid.

I was talking more about America. Theres some things that we just sweep under the carpet that shouldn't be known about.

So the people back in California that have safe trade routes, trains, farms, military, police, courts, laws, free markets and the list goes on, are getting nothing in return for their taxes? :thumbsup:



I agree somethings should not be known, at least not right away. Still I don't see that as corruption. There is the freedom of information act. If you are to open you make yourself weak and you bring panic to your people. To closed, you find yourself in "1984." Or like the people of Berlin not knowing the Russians were just 80 KM down the road.

I got the impression that the people of NCR had a good idea of what is going on in the Mojave. Yes Man talks about the people blambing Kimball if Caesar wins. Thats why it would be good to save him. That way the people have someone to vent their anger at.

The NCR in the game is pretty obviously intended as a mirror-image of the USA, with elements borrowed from most of the salient points throughout our history. Early expansionism from a relatively small coastal area (manifest destiny), democracy tempered with and driven by raw (and sometimes 'evil') capitalism, disregard for native peoples during said expansion, including massacres (Bitter Springs = Wounded Knee, etc.), segregation, discrimination, and reservations (Red Rock Canyon, Khans), while at the same time reflecting that most of its citizens are basically good people who mean well. Large historic wars against evil, threatening dictatorships... Caesar = Hitler, etc. With a taste of Vietnam/Afghanistan thrown in for flavor... quagmire? Are we really accomplishing anything here? So the answer is, yes, all the above. Heroes, thieves, and everything else on the spectrum of the human experience through history.

I think people tend to look more of a blind eye to NCR in where there at in Nevada. People got to remember there stretched far and wide. They cant keep control of everything where there at in FNV.

Well the NCR can hardly steal from 'themselves'. The People in Vegas under the 'protection' of the NCR on the other hand.

It leads me to think they're stealing from everyone they've annexed, and then just spending it all on their home state, instead of distributing the money fairly.

They arn't stealing. NCR makes any area that take control of apart of NCR. NCR has States and Territories. They are doing what America did along time ago. Insted of Moving West like America did, NCR is moving east. They set up territories and in time those territories become states. The people that they take control of get a say in the NCR government. They get a vote and that means they get a say in how things get done.

It is not like NCR is going in, killing and enslaving people. Looting everything and forcing people into their armies like another Faction is doing. NCR is slow and bureaucratic and they need taxes. The very fact they are bureaucratic and collect taxes shows they have a government trying to help people. No "first world country" (developed) is free of bureaucratic red tape, taxes and corruption. To be free of taxes and bureaucratic red tape one only has to go to the more chaotic lawless countries. May not have alot of taxes or bureaucracy there but you get alot more corruption.

If the prewar US is the idealized, gilded-over hell of the 1950's McCarthy "world of tomorrow," then the NCR is a sort of high-tech Age of Expansion US (mid-late 1800's.) The drive to be coast-to-coast, manifest destiny, and all that came with it. That US was a very double-edged sword, as it brought economic security, a powerful Army, a set code of laws and reasonable and fair trade. However, they tended to either crush or absorb everyone they came into contact with (ie: the Native Americans.) A great many very good things were done in that age, and an equal number of outright vile ones as well.

Every nation is like that, even today.

The failing of the NCR is in presentation vis-a-vis it's enemies, rather than it's own. It's a morally gray if well meaning power going up against and outright black-and-white evil enemy (the Legion.) It's a believable middleground nation going against an almost comically evil one, and the extreme disparity is what generates so many blind fans for the Legion. The NCR's face is pretty bland until the player digs deeper, while the Legion starts throwing grimdark around like it hasn't gone out of style already.

It's also why the extremes of Encalve and CW BoS love/hate exist.

All that said, I'd still call the NCR heroes. Why? Because unlike Caesar, the BoS, Mr.House or the Yes Man, the NCR is actually striving for something grand that can better the lives of every man, woman and child under it's wing furry paws. They know they've got problems, but forge ahead anyway knowing full well that the odds of pulling off their gmabit are very long. The risk is extreme beyond belief, but the rewards are equal.

Meanwhile Caesar wants to paint the Mojave red to fulfill his insane monomaniacal fnatasy, House just wants to keep his power to himself, and Yes Man is pretty much a status-quo fart in the wind.

And, finally, I'll say again; Bitter Springs is not good evidence of the NCR being "evil." It's a chilling example of what happens when military communications break down in the middle of an operation, which can, has and WILL happen to every military to exist. Neither side is at fault.

Are the people of Vegas not getting the protection of an army that prevents the Legion from conquering the whole Mojave? Seems a fair exchange.