NCR's use of planes?

Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:29 am

Hey guys, I was just curious, today I was wandering around exploring camp McArren, right? I make my way to the back where there are all of those planes.. and I think to myself, why havn't they used them? Is it lack of fuel? Is it lack of training? I mean, the boomers know how to fly planes, but then again they have the training sim for themselves... I know that there's enough planes back there that if they wanted too they could just scavenge whatever parts the need from another plane to get one working. Or perhaps it's simply they are not interested in using planes? Well then, discuss :)
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Rebecca Dosch
 
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Post » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:02 pm

Well, assuming they run on fuel and not nuclear power, just before the war, oils and fossil fuels were bone dry in the world, so I would imagine that the planes would have been used by the wealthiest of the wealthy, the boomers obviously learned how to reproduce fuel, but we don't know how long they've been doing that for the last 50 years since they left Vault 34. I think airplanes arent something the NCR could repair, it might be to complex for them.
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Jerry Cox
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:33 am

Not enough fuel, and probably the plane's are too old for it to function correctly.

Small planes detiorate fast.
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Mimi BC
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:51 am

Not enough fuel guessing biodiesel or ethanol ( fossil fuel is gone) and not that many people that know how to fly them. There is also no runways, there is a wall around the airport.
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Robert Jr
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:04 am

Fuel, maintenance, and resupply are all issues. They don't know where to get the fuel, how to maintain the planes effectively, and can't reproduce the equipment and armaments. Could they? Theoretically, yes. But the effort it would take...you could outfit an entire company of Ranger instead.
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chloe hampson
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:02 am

Well, judging by looks, I think those planes arn't in too bad shape, in nevada there is a bone yard of planes that are just parked there, and they stay in perfect condition as long as they are covered with a tarp.. hmm those salt plains out there in the desert from the dried lakes could work as a runway, and these arn't small planes, they're full on bombers! I think that fossil fuel might be available, flamer fuel, ect could be used.. in theory! Now the armaments could be a problem, but there are caches out there ( look at fort independence in fallout 3, and the boomers have an entire stockhouse FULL of bombs for planes.. then again I doubt they're be willing to share their fuel OR bombs. Unless the NCR is at the receiving end of course! Now like I said, I'm sure somebody can figure out how to use these planes, and how to repair them, they're propeller, not jet planes! There are definitely enough other planes there to scavenge enough working parts off.
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Jah Allen
 
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Post » Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:32 pm

Problem with using the salt flats as runways, the legion or other factions could mess with them. NCR would have to send more troops out to protect the runways to make sure legion or other arn't out there planting bombs. Fuel needed for the planes could be better used for other things. If they are making ethanol (best bet they are) they can't make enough of it without using up food/corn needed for food.
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Budgie
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:05 am

I was under the impression that there is still oil deposits and thats is why teh war started, resources were becoming scarce, they had not dissapeared.
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Soku Nyorah
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:28 am

I was under the impression that there is still oil deposits and thats is why teh war started, resources were becoming scarce, they had not dissapeared.


They were fighting for the very last deposit of fuel or oil, the Middle East had Oil, and they were wiped out.

Alaska was too, most likely wiped out.
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J.P loves
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:50 am

Yeah but keep in mind, in fallout 2 the enclave were STILL getting oil from that rig, even though it was totally destroyed, they had to move it somewhere else, like a refinery or on-shore storing facility.
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Krista Belle Davis
 
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Post » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:20 pm

Is it for the same reasons that Dr.lee didn't restore any of the planes on rivet city's flight deck?
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Tania Bunic
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:48 am

Well, assuming they run on fuel and not nuclear power, just before the war, oils and fossil fuels were bone dry in the world, so I would imagine that the planes would have been used by the wealthiest of the wealthy, the boomers obviously learned how to reproduce fuel, but we don't know how long they've been doing that for the last 50 years since they left Vault 34. I think airplanes arent something the NCR could repair, it might be to complex for them.


Do the Boomers mention making fuel? I always just assumed that Nellis as a military base had some fuel reserves left. Since McCarran was a civilian airport it presumably wouldn't have had access to the US's limited reserves.
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CSar L
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:00 am

Do the Boomers mention making fuel? I always just assumed that Nellis as a military base had some fuel reserves left. Since McCarran was a civilian airport it presumably wouldn't have had access to the US's limited reserves.


They make bio-diesel out of maize.
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lisa nuttall
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:47 am

Bio fuels are relatively easy to produce, what isn't so easy are the specialist lubricants required by aircraft.
Before anybody asks all fuels and lubricants especially aviation products have a limited shelf life , and as for Nellis having fuel reserves, 200 year old fuel would be useless even if it hadn't evaporated.
Having said that, VertiBirds must be serviced and run on something.
Fuel storage and quality control used to be my military trade, but its been over 25 years since I finished my service so cant remember exact details or give exact figures.
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jessica breen
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:57 am

If the boomers can use fuel, why can't the NCR? The NCR own some land in the wasteland.
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josie treuberg
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:59 am

If the boomers can use fuel, why can't the NCR? The NCR own some land in the wasteland.


NCR has a huge population to feed. Corn grown in the Mojave is for the army. Its the same reason why the UN in are world has said Ethanol is bad because it makes food prices sky rocket. All for a fuel thats not as good as gas.
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Add Me
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:21 am

If the boomers can use fuel, why can't the NCR? The NCR own some land in the wasteland.


Does the NCR have access to fuel? Yes, I am rather sure the Vertibirds are not Fusion powered
Spoiler
The pres. bird does not go up in a small nuke blast like the cars do when you shoot them.


Could the NCR repair the planes? Odds are yeah given enough time. There are books everywhere odds are high a repair manual could be found if really needed. If not then given there amount of stuff to work with odds are they could figure it out with enough time.

Could the NCR learn to fly the planes? This is where I say no, and all the plans to use the planes fail.
1. They have enough to fix a few planes... sure, but there will be a ton of crashes, and you can only fix so much from scrapped items. I think they would run out of parts before they got a single man up in the air who could actually fly it.

2. The NCR cares more for its expansion then anything else. They would not take the time it would take to fix up, and test flight as many planes as it would need to.

3. Even if they did devote the time morale would plummet amongst the test pilots when time after time all hands on deck would die when the plane did crash during the first stages. Odds are even if the NCR did not care about its losses they would soon find that they ran out of 'willing' pilots.

4. The Boomers...
4.a. Could they use the Boomers sims to learn how to fly? Yeah, but after all you do for them they still don't let you use it. Why would they turn it over to the NCR?
4.b. Could the NCR take over the Air-base? Yes, but they would have to do it in such a manner that would very likely leave the sims in such a state that they would never work again.
4.c. If the boomers where to see the NCR flying planes around do you really think they would not be interested in taking them for themselves? The Fort barely held out to Fiends they could not stop a full scale attack from the Boomers. No matter what we think about the Boomers by the end of New Vegas they are utterly insane, and are just one step removed from Fiends. Do you really think they would be apposed to raiding for more flying machines?

In my book its best that the NCR never dreams of flying those planes. At best they would lose a lot of decent men... at worst they are at the wrong end of a Boomers best friend.
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anna ley
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:33 am

Yeah I see your points your right,but I would think the NCR would have some vertibirds or something, think of the potential, or even some sea vessels! For expansion they could use them for surveying areas from a safe distance above the ground! They could cover great distances fast too. The boomers whole hate thing for the world is caused because they view everybody else as uncivilized, I think if they saw the immense infrastructure the NCR has and how they're led and everything, they would be deemed civilized.
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Katie Pollard
 
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Post » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:43 pm

I've done a bit of a think about airpower in fallout in the past... This is a repost of those thoughts:

Hot air Baloons - Probably exist in moderate and higher technology groups. Textiles and some gas burning technology required. Probably owned by richer eccentrics for pleasure, and used by organised governments (NCR, Vault city, etc) for scouting, cartorgraphy and aerospace research.

Lighter than air baloons and Zepplins - Helium aircraft (like blimps are today) are probably non existant due to the difficulty in getting helium. This leaves Hydrogen, like the Hindenburg used, which is plentyful and relatively easy to produce (Any water source, even if undrinkable + Electric Current = Oxygen and Hydrogen). Known to exist in the BOS (if Tactics is taken as Canon). Within technological grasp of the NCR, Shi, and Vault City, although the NCR is more likely than the others to build them it due to better resources. Can be used for transport, as well as scouting purposes. Probably out of reach of the regular citizen, although richer caravan masters may have an interest in this technology to get above the raiders.

Fixed Wing Gliders - Essentially an aeroplane without an engine. They can take off by various sources, such as another fixed wing aircraft towing it, a winch (essentually an engine with a long cable), an Auto-Tow, or a bungie launch from a hill. The Current standing endurance gliding record is over 56 hours, and was set in 1952 (new records stopped being existed at this point for safety reasons), showing that long term flights without an engine are possible given pre-divergence technology. This would require some degree of civil control (as an airfield of some type would be required, and would need to be maintained) and technological development (to build the aircraft structure and launch method). Gliders can be used for recognissance and transport (tanks and troops were transported by glider in WW2). Shi, NCR, Vault City, and the Brotherhood are all potential users of Gliding technology.

Fixed wing power (Aeroplanes). Some level of civil control is required to operate and maintain an airfield, and a good understanding of technology is required to build and maintain. AvGas (Fuel) is likely to be extremely rare, so any Fixed wing flying is probably limited unless alternative fuel sources are available. NCR and Vault City, with their access to pre war vaults (and the Vault library contained within) could possbily build a fixed wing aircraft. Brotherhood is a possibility, depending on the source of their library. Shi are less likely without these sources, but due to their organised scientific culture have the capability to rediscover the secrets on their own (if they cant find a source in an old San Fran Library somewhere). This is probably the minimum level of flight technology the enclave would show, however due to their lack of territorial control would have some trouble showing this power.

Helicopter / Vertibird. A Heliport is probably easier to control, operate and maintain than a full runway airfield, but helicopters would require a good technological understanding and capability. Enclave show this capability. NCR and Vault City with their access to Vault Library computers might be able to build some elementry helicopters. Shi and Brotherhood may have plans and capability to build vertibirds, depending on how you finished FO2. However, fuel is likely to be a problem.

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Bloomer
 
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Post » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:39 pm

How could tehy not learn to fly planes the first to fly planes had no idea how to fly but they did. I reallly dont see how "oh the NCr would not be able to cause they dont have enough knowledge' is a reasonable answer. Morale also does not matter as they have enough people, just dont tell epople that others have died,its not a problem just a matter of time.
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Jason White
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:51 am

Is it for the same reasons that Dr.lee didn't restore any of the planes on rivet city's flight deck?

More important things to do (like securing foodstuffs and medicines). Rivet City is secure enough given its construction to need to show any air power, and isnt an expansionist power. What would they do with a plane other than offer joyrides?
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Angel Torres
 
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Post » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:48 pm

Does the NCR have access to fuel? Yes, I am rather sure the Vertibirds are not Fusion powered
Spoiler
The pres. bird does not go up in a small nuke blast like the cars do when you shoot them.


Could the NCR repair the planes? Odds are yeah given enough time. There are books everywhere odds are high a repair manual could be found if really needed. If not then given there amount of stuff to work with odds are they could figure it out with enough time.

Could the NCR learn to fly the planes? This is where I say no, and all the plans to use the planes fail.
1. They have enough to fix a few planes... sure, but there will be a ton of crashes, and you can only fix so much from scrapped items. I think they would run out of parts before they got a single man up in the air who could actually fly it.

I don't think there'd be as many serious crashes as you think. If a couple of Bicycle salesmen can build one in the 19th century, the NCR can clearly build an aircraft given they have the entire library of congress, full of information on how to build, and crash aircraft.

(The idea of a winged flying apparatus is older than you think - George Cayley designed them in the 18th and 18th century, with his notebooks showing a device you'd definately recognise as a Aeroplane (or would be if it had an engine)/Glider by 1804 - single pair of wings, rear tailplane with horizontal stabiliser, and built one by 185; I say this only becuse it shows that modern materials and tools are not required to build them - and bear in mind these guys were discovering aerodynamics as they went along, something that the NCR isnt going to have to do).

I think the big safety problem with NCR starting to get into air power would be pilot knowledge - no hands on trainers to explain concepts like stalls, spins, spiral dives (Although they can definately read about them) so there's going to be a lot of pilot error, perhaps at times that results in death (trying to lift a wing in a stall turn).
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Neil
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:17 am

Those planes the air-base are way, way, way more technical then the ones those that the Wright brothers built/flew.

You can't take a man who has never seen a computer before, and expect him to build, and run one out of 5 broken computers.
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Eoh
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:28 am

The question isn't really could they. Given time, considering the knowledge they have, they could. Given the right caution, they could even get people into the air without fear of death.
But the cost inherent in doing it is the true killer. Why do that when all the funds and time spent could be spent improving your army?
Yeah, a bomber or two will be useful. Not as useful as an entire battalion of Rangers. Or improving food production. Or infrastructure.
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Avril Louise
 
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Post » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:10 am

Those planes the air-base are way, way, way more technical then the ones those that the Wright brothers built/flew.

You can't take a man who has never seen a computer before, and expect him to build, and run one out of 5 broken computers.

But the NCR aren't in that "never seen it" position. They have engineers with a university grade education, the manual for the aircraft and its equipment, and textbooks on the theoretical side - all thanks to the knowledge in the vaults (they have access to at least 2) and their GECK(s) (Shady Sands was built with at least 1).

Reverse engineering is a darn sight easier when you know what the device is, and how it works. Theres no reason why they would even have to rely on salvage - they could build a few of their own.
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candice keenan
 
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