Either, or, or both. The more options the better, Taddeus, but within reason. You don't need to knock yourself out over it. Frankly, for my play style, I can hear the hunger/thirst/fatigue sound effects, and look at the spell effects in game to know my status. As long as there is a legend in the readme, I can go without any text messages at all after the initial configuration.


Excellent! Are the shops still there or are they gone completely?

Uhm... I hate these grammatical doubts...
When you have eaten enough, you won't be able to eat anymore until next day.

The shops are all here, don't worry, they are cell editing and NoM wouldn't be the same without them. With landscape editing I mean only moving the ground level and changing its textures. It's a small thing but one of the most dangerous things for mod conflicts.

"Nor" sounds awkward, even if technically it might be an option. Also, for the above rule to apply you would have to create another clause: "You have not had enough to eat, nor have you had enough to drink" It ends up unnecessarily wordy. This is one of those nuances that can be hard to grasp immediately as a secondary language. I've learned enough Spanish and Portuguese to know that if you were to translate the sentence in question literally from those languages to English you would indeed use "nor" and I'd bet Italian to English is the same way. But you are already aware of this type of difficulty.

If you really want to be assured further I googled "have not had enough to eat or drink" and came up with 18,700 results where "have not had enough to eat nor drink" came up with 0 results.

"And" works fine really. The difference between "and" and "or" is pretty much emphasis. Use "and" if you want to emphasize that the condition is a result of lack of both food and drink together. Use "or" if you want to indicate that lack of one or the other or both leads to the condition. Just my opinion.

Anyway, I don't want to beat the matter to death. Honestly whatever word you decide to use, it will be understood. Just hoping to relieve any doubts you might have as you still seemed vexed. I think the fact that you worry about getting it just right is a testament to the quality attention you give your mods.

Edit: little further explanation.

I agree with eltrane. "And" means that both conditions apply. "Or" has two possible meanings, one where either condition or both will satisfy the requirement, the other "exclusive or" where either positive condition is valid, but both together are invalid. Since "and" works, and "or" only "half-works", I'd be strongly inclined to use "and".

Keeping the "minimal hunger" messages short is probably as important as having them technically correct, since you're going to see them frequently, and any longer would get annoying to read. The more severe stages can have wordier messages, since they'll be used far less frequently.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Also, saving the malnourished description for the latter stages might be a good idea since malnourishment, although its seeds start at the beginning, carries the implication of an advanced or chronic state. I'd say you could easily drop that sentence from the first stage and that would at the same time shorten them up.

Ok, so I decided to use "and". I've made a few corrections and shortened the first stage wanrings. Here are the definitive (I hope) messages for malnutrition:
- You have not had enough to drink.
- You have not had enough to eat.
- You have not had enough to eat and drink.
- You have not had enough to drink. You are becoming weak from malnutrition.
- You have not had enough to eat. You are becoming weak from malnutrition.
- You have not had enough to eat and drink. You are becoming weak from malnutrition.
- You have not had enough to drink. You are becoming very weak from malnutrition.
- You have not had enough to eat. You are becoming very weak from malnutrition.
- You have not had enough to eat and drink. You are becoming very weak from malnutrition.
- You are extremely malnourished. You feel tremendously weak, your muscles ache and every motion is a burdensome effort. You must find food and water now or you will die from malnutrition! (This one means the PC is about to die in 1-3 days. If he/she's sleeping the script will force a wake up)
- You stumble and collapse to the ground from weakness and exhaustion. Unable to get back up and too apathetic to care, you gape silently above you as you slowly expire. You have died from malnutrition. (Dead)

And here are the (optional) messages coming with the stomach sound when you don't eat enough at lunch or dinner:
- Lunch (Dinner) time has passed and you didn't eat and drink enough. You should find some food and water.
- Lunch (Dinner) time has passed and you didn't eat enough. You should find some food.
- Lunch (Dinner) time has passed and you didn't drink enough. You should find some water.

- You have not had enough to drink. You are becoming weak from malnutrition.
- You have not had enough to eat. You are becoming weak from malnutrition.

I would save "malnutrition" for those instances where the player has not had enough food *and* water, since "hunger" and "thirst" are more clear (and more common) when it is just one or the other.

- You are extremely malnourished. You feel tremendously weak, your muscles ache and every motion is a burdensome effort. You must find food and water now or you will die from malnutrition! (This one means the PC is about to die in 1-3 days. If he/she's sleeping the script will force a wake up)


"every motion is a burdensome effort" is an awkward phrase. Just say "moving is difficult" or "every move is an effort"

- You stumble and collapse to the ground from weakness and exhaustion. Unable to get back up and too apathetic to care, you gape silently above you as you slowly expire. You have died from malnutrition. (Dead)

"weakness" is rather redundant in this phrase. You could say just "exhaustion". The rest has a lovely touch of melodrama which definitely suits a situation where someone has starved themselves to death. Good job!

I'm happy with the last proposed set of messages. Anything more is just nit-picking, in my opinion.

I'm done with the warnings and with the new malnutrition system in general. Now I've to test it, it can take quite some time...

In the meantime, I'll continue working on other aspects of the update.
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4162/ashyambeta.jpg

Just another sentence I put in to better differentiate recovery steps. It's the middle one, the other two are here to show the position of the new one.
- You've had enough to eat and drink for today. You feel relieved but you are still weak.
- You've had enough to eat and drink for today. You feel better as you recover from malnutrition.
- You've had enough to eat and drink for today. You feel satisfied and you're only a step away from full health.

Finished playing with the ash yam.
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/4628/ashyam.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6690/ashyamgame.jpg

Now that looks like something you might pull out of the ground in the Ashlands.

It seems that automatic scripts can sometimes eat a food that players don't want or don't expect to be eaten, at least not as first choice. Obviously, for me everything is working as intended, but I understand that things can be unclear to people who don't know my reasoning on what should be consumed first. Maybe a little explanation (and a few adjustments if needed) can improve the behaviour of the eating scripts.

With regard to the automatic eating, the foods are divided in 3 groups: first tier, second tier, raw.
First tier foods are the ones usually eaten first. They are cooked foods or things that you usually eat without cooking, like apples and oranges.
Second tier foods can be eaten safely but are used as a second choice for a variety of reasons. They're raw eggs, raw vegetables, things that are edible but usually aren't used as food (lemon). Certain second tier foods can be eaten before certain first tier foods if specific hunger conditions are met; however the scripts will always search at least a few dozens first tier foods before reaching the second tier ones.
Raw foods are things like raw meat and fish, which you usually don't eat without cooking (I know there are exceptions, but it's only a general reasoning). This category contains also things that are eadible but you want to save for cooking (sugar, lard) or vegetables not as edible as the second tier ones in raw form. There's an option in the config script to exclude raw foods from automatic eating.

First tier foods:

• Apple
  
• Apple Pie
  
• Ash Yam Bread
  
• Berry Pie
  
• Bittersweet Beef
  
• Boiled Corn
  
• Bread
  
• Breaded Chicken Leg
  
• Camlorn Cheese
  
• Comberry
  
• Corinth Cheese
  
• Corn And Cheese Pie
  
• Corn Bread
  
• Crab Meat
  
• Crab Meat And Scuttle
  
• Crab Omelette
  
• Cyrodiil Cheese
  
• Cyrodiil Fillet
  
• Deep-Fried Ash Yam
  
• Dibella's Cookie
  
• Fruit Salad
  
• Good Luck Biscuit
  
• Graqes
  
• Grilled Beef
  
• Grilled Chicken Leg
  
• Grilled Fish
  
• Grilled Guar Rib
  
• Grilled Meat
  
• Guar Jerky
  
• Guar Sausage
  
• Ham
  
• Hard-Boiled Egg
  
• Holly Berries
  
• Hound And Rat Pie
  
• Kagouti Skewer
  
• Lemon Fillet
  
• Lemon Pie
  
• Moon Sugar Pudding
  
• Muffin
  
• Omelette
  
• Onion
  
• Onion Soup
  
• Orange
  
• Orange Pie
  
• Pear
  
• Pear Pie
  
• Pit Cheese
  
• Racer Morsel
  
• Rat Soup
  
• Roasted Ash Yam
  
• Roasted Corkbulb Root
  
• Roasted Corn
  
• Roasted Fish
  
• Roasted Meat
  
• Salt-Crusted Fish
  
• Saltrice Delight
  
• Saltrice Porridge
  
• Saltrice With Mushrooms
  
• Scrib Jerky
  
• Scuttle
  
• Seaweed Soup
  
• Sentinel Salami
  
• Shepherd's Pie
  
• Spicy Sausage
  
• Stewed Bittergreen
  
• Stewed Hackle-Lo
  
• Stewed Marshmerrow
  
• Stewed Scrib Cabbage
  
• Succulent Guar Rib
  
• Sweetroll
  
• Tomato
  
• Torall Biscuit
  
• Turtle Soup
  
• Zaasmorc Cheese

Second tier foods:

• Ash Yam
  
• Chicken Egg
  
• Corkbulb Root
  
• Hackle-Lo Leaf
  
• Large Kwama Egg
  
• Lemon
  
• Scrib Cabbage
  
• Scrib Jelly
  
• Small Kwama Egg

Raw foods:

• All animal meats (11)
  
• All fishes (3)
  
• Green Alga
  
• Hypha Facia
  
• Lard
  
• Marshmerrow
  
• Sugar

There are other foods, too, but they come from ohter mods (TR, Water Life, ...) and you can't find them in vanilla NoM. They're easily adjusted once things are sorted out well.
Any suggestion/ideas on foods to move from a group to another?

Raw eggs would probably fit better in Tier 3, but I can see eating them before raw meats. Raw crab meat would definitely be in Tier 3 for me; I would have to be extremely hungry to crack open a crab and eat the meat raw.

Comberry always struck me as a "second tier" food: a bit bitter raw, but quite edible and good for baking. I hate losing them all the time, since they've got valuable alchemical properties and can also be baked into more nutritious foods.

[ I agree with the posts below about the Hollyberries, they're another "peeve" when they get eaten beyond my control. ]

So for now I should move:
- crab meat to raw foods
- comberry to second tier
- holly berries to second tier, too?

These 3 seem the foods that can give the most problems. If there are other suggestions I'll be happy to read them.

I agree with moving the holly berries, too, yes.

Sorry to take so long to follow up on this but just got back to the outpost to double check myself. The lighting makes sense then. I use True Light and Darkness. The fact that it is so dark for me is just a difference in the mods plus personal settings. Nothing I can't fix with a couple well placed lanterns.

Just so I can make sure we are talking about the same merchant, the one I was referring to is Marius Baccanis (dealer 31). He barters with 400 gold, just has nothing to sell. But if its just my side I'll chalk it up to some weird fluke.

Also just a couple humble suggestions that stuck in my mind as I continue to play with the mod.

-I've yet to find sugar and salt for sale even in major cities (plenty of lard though). I'm guessing you are wanting to make these rare but any chance of adding them even in small quantities for maybe the major merchants (e.g. Balmora, Aldruhn).

-This is extremely subjective but it would be nice to see some of the dunmer/native food merchants sell less imperial foods and have fewer of them on the shelves. The Ald'ruhn merchant is one that sticks in my mind as I just left there.

Anyway, nit-picky stuff aside, looking forward to the update.

Salt has always been in stock at the food vendor in Balmora near the silt strider. It looks like an off-white pile of sand, rather than bright white grains. In my opinion, it should be a little more readily available at food markets or even at some general strores.

I can't answer about sugar, because I generally switch to the skill-based cooking recipes in Morrowind Crafting, rather than the "always succeed" formulas in NoM, after the character gets settled in a bit. Unfortunately, I'm still having issues with MC foods either not being recognized or not being anywhere near as nutritious as NoM foods or something, because I'm still getting hunger warnings and auto-eating even after eating 2 or 3 full-meal MC items. I really like the new "dual purpose" fires now, which give you the option of cooking with one system or the other.

Well it would figure I'm just being blind and not seeing either one in spite of it being already available. I'll keep a closer eye out for both.

Here's how http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/9217/ss002d.jpg looks in my game. There must be some kind of weird glitch affecting the merchant for you. Have you mods or patches loading after NoM? Maybe they're accidentally modifying him.

I just visited a few merchants in the major cities and they have both sugar and salt. The Balmora one has 14 salt and 11 sugar, for example. You can buy sugar and salt at the major NoM merchants and at bakeries (Mournhold, Sadrith Mora, Vivec Foreign Quarter).
As for the imperial foods, I was very careful in placing them in this version of the mod. You can find them in the part of Vvardenfell heavily occupied by imperial troops (the towns with a legion fort in their close vicinity). The NoM Food Route is the path that imperial food follows to be distributed to the imperial forts: it starts from Ebonheart to Vivec, then Pelagiad, Balmora, Caldera, Ald-Ruhn and finally Gnisis. Since the population of these towns is mixed enough and many of them have imperial guilds too, it makes sense for local merchants to start selling imported foods. You won't find imported foods in places like ashlander camps ot Telvanni towns, where the imperial influence is weaker.

Yeah, its pretty clear that my copy is messed up somehow. I make pretty detailed notes if I ever edit a mod and I've no memory editing NoM. I use EE if I do make edits or look at mods on the fly and I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of the program creating unintended changes. I'm sure no patches or mods I have would cause this. In the end its a big mystery to me but I'm just going to wipe my save clean of NoM and start with a fresh install. Thanks for helping me sort it out.

I didn't posted for a few days, but I worked a lot on the mod. Unfortunately, the system I was building showed some flaws that prevented me to bring it to completion. The problems were of various nature: scripting, gameplay and clearness.
So I resorted to make the step I postponed for a long time: adding MWSE and MGE functions in NoM.
The first and more important news is that now NoM has a http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/5506/ss003.jpg with bars showing the level of food, water and rest the PC has at any moment.

Having a GUI allows to reduce the number and verbosity of the text messages. For example, the usual "You eat an apple to satisfy your hunger" will become simply "You eat an apple", with the food bar filling in the top corner of your screen. The message warning about lunch or dinner time approaching will be removed, leaving only the stomach sound when one of the bars is nearly empty. And so on...
The http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/4664/ss004.jpg under the bars show the level of hunger, thirst and sleep that the PC is suffering. In the screenshot you can see level 3 of hunger (over a maximum of 10) and level 2 of thirst (over a maximum of 5). Having a visual indicator of the penalty level has another advantage: I was able to remove the spell penalties from the first levels of hunger, thirst and sleep. So if you accidentally become hungry, you won't be instantly struck by burden. The spell penalties are still there, but only following levels.

Using MWSE allows to solve even more problems that were around for a long time:

• Determining the PC six without a question in the config script
  
• Determining if the PC is in combat (this is thougher than you can think)

Converting the whole system is taking a bit of time, but I hope I'll come out with a big step forward over the current version.

Taddeus, what are the alchemy bottles made out of? http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/5862/orangejuice.jpg.
They look like they are made of plastic but that cannot be. Is it plaster? Glass?

I hate to be "that person", but looking at it, I feel the GUI is a little obtrusive. Will there be an option to turn it off or move it to the bottom of the screen in-game, or is it mandatory that it has to be in the upper corner?