[REL] Necessities of Morrowind 3.0 : III - Morrowind

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:56 pm

First off, love the fountain. May I hope it uses a default texture? As some people from PES may know, I use http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=8047 textures for Hlaalu. Seeing something with the old style texture would be jarring.

Secondly, I have an issue with the fires myself. When using NoM with MC, the NoM fire kit is twice as expensive. For this price, I don't need wood, however I also have limited uses, can't cook MC foods, don't improve craft skills, and the fire can't be put out (incidentally, removing the fire with the console caused a CTD). So, overall, there's really no reason I would ever want to use a NoM campfire over a MC one. Might I suggest the next MC patch replace both kits, and give us one that uses MC features, but can cook NoM foods? It would also be nice if NoM foods counted for cooking skill, but since that would mean adding failure chances (or only very minor improvement) I won't begrudge not getting that.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:49 pm

Thanks for the feedback.

So far, I'm quite pleased with most of the changes in 3.0.

The only things that caused me some annoyance were:

First, not being able to light a Morrowind Crafting fire anymore in the firepit inside the abruptly vacated house of the suddenly deceased Foryn Gilnith in Seyda Neen. Having a MC cookfire was at least half the reason for occupying the place.

Second, maybe I've got my load order scrambled or something, but it didn't allow me to eat some bread, but was fine with other loaves, and some of the MC raw ingredients (onions, for example) won't stack in inventory or in containers anymore. I'll have to do some more work to rearrange the load order, and see if it changes, but that probably won't happen for a while.

- Also: the mod will automatically select dishes like Stewed Bittergreen or Onion Soup, but it won't accept them if I drop them into the satchel for manual eating. On top of that, if I eat a couple of items (such as Grilled Meat and some crabmeat) manually after the prompt and "belly growl", I get a "Well Fed" icon, but an hour later it will still automatically select another item from inventory to eat. The above mentioned problem with the bread may be a case where it's not manually selectable, but can still be "auto-selected" by the program. Not being able to intentionally eat a loaf of bread seems a little odd.

Foryn Gilnith's hut has, like all other buildings in cities, an activator that prevents you from lighting a fire there. However, if you say that the player at a certain point can occupy the place, I can make a custom script that deactivates the activator at the right moment. If you send me more details by PM, I'll add this to the next patch. The best thing you can do right now is to open NoM esp in the CS and remove the NoM_illegal activator from the cell.

Second, the MC foods. The NoM_MC patch replaces some raw MC ingredients (the onions for example) with NoM ones. If you have some of these in your inventory or in a container, you should drop them to the ground and they'll disappear.
The bread you can't eat is the one from MC? Remember that the foods from MC are alchemy, while NoM foods are ingredients. That means that they're eaten in different ways: NoM foods are eaten by NoM scripts (auto or manual), MC foods are eaten dragging them on the player image, like potions. You can distinguish the foods in inventory: the ones appearing in the Magic tab are from MC, the ones in the Misc tab are from NoM. The two mods have a completely different point of view on food, so while they work well togheter, they can't be made perfectly similar on eating methods.

Lastly, I'll have to check about foods that are eaten automatically and not manually and for the other problem you pointed out.

First off, love the fountain. May I hope it uses a default texture? As some people from PES may know, I use http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=8047 textures for Hlaalu. Seeing something with the old style texture would be jarring.

Secondly, I have an issue with the fires myself. When using NoM with MC, the NoM fire kit is twice as expensive. For this price, I don't need wood, however I also have limited uses, can't cook MC foods, don't improve craft skills, and the fire can't be put out (incidentally, removing the fire with the console caused a CTD). So, overall, there's really no reason I would ever want to use a NoM campfire over a MC one. Might I suggest the next MC patch replace both kits, and give us one that uses MC features, but can cook NoM foods? It would also be nice if NoM foods counted for cooking skill, but since that would mean adding failure chances (or only very minor improvement) I won't begrudge not getting that.

The fountain will use the default hlaalu textures. I always try to use standard textures where I can, so that my addition won't look out of place with the different texture packs.

As for the campfire, when I created the MC patch I made the MC fire usable with NoM, but not the opposite. In the next update I can tighten the things a little more, trying to give to the NoM firekit some of the MC features. I can't make them 100% similar, since the two fires give different results for the same actions (for example, activating the MC fire you cook MC foods, activating the NoM one you roast meat, fishes and vegetables). I'll see what I can do. In any case, NoM foods will not give MC skill points, because I like plain cooking without failure problems.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:08 pm

Hi. Is NOM 3.02 compatible with Darknut's Greater Dwemer Ruins? I know there is a normal DN version of the ruins, and the DN_NOM version, but that was made for the previous version 2.x of NOM. Is that still valid with 3.0? Or should I use just the standard DN .esp with NOM 3.0?

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:22 pm

Hi. Is NOM 3.02 compatible with Darknut's Greater Dwemer Ruins? I know there is a normal DN version of the ruins, and the DN_NOM version, but that was made for the previous version 2.x of NOM. Is that still valid with 3.0? Or should I use just the standard DN .esp with NOM 3.0?

From what I can see, the DN_NOM version should be compatible with the new NoM version.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:18 pm

From what I can see, the DN_NOM version should be compatible with the new NoM version.

Good. I guess someone should tell the maintainers of mlox, since it warns about it requiring 2.13. Also, BTB made a modification to DN ruins esp, fixed some plants not being compatible with herbalism for purists. I wonder if the same edit should be done to the DN_NOM version of DN Ruins.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:46 pm

The fountain will use the default hlaalu textures. I always try to use standard textures where I can, so that my addition won't look out of place with the different texture packs.

Okay. I thought I'd noticed that with the ovens, but I wasn't 100% sure.

As for the campfire, when I created the MC patch I made the MC fire usable with NoM, but not the opposite. In the next update I can tighten the things a little more, trying to give to the NoM firekit some of the MC features. I can't make them 100% similar, since the two fires give different results for the same actions (for example, activating the MC fire you cook MC foods, activating the NoM one you roast meat, fishes and vegetables). I'll see what I can do. In any case, NoM foods will not give MC skill points, because I like plain cooking without failure problems.

Well, like I said, skills from NoM foods would have been nice to have, but I figured that was how you felt on it. I'm happy enough if you're willing to do something with the fire functions...Honestly, I'm happy enough with the mod as is, but it just seemed odd that when running it with MC I have items for sale that cost more and do less. :whistling:

If you can't add MC cooking to NoM fires, though (and I really hope you can), could you at least add the ability to tear down a fire when done with it? This is probably the feature I like best from MC's fires, as I don't like littering the remains of my camps all over the place.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:15 pm

For future reference, that shack in Seyda Neen becomes vacant (but some of the contents are still technically owned by the deceased) after the missing Tax Collector quest. Having the fire restriction lifted after you complete it would be a huge help; after all, what good is a firepit without a fire?

The MC vs NoM bread issue should go away when I start a new character, from what I can see, but it looks like the auto-eat-only issue with some foods and the auto-eating 1 hour after manual-eating quirk will have to wait for your intervention. Meanwhile, it's still a huge improvement over the previous version, and if it's enough of a bother to me, I can try to make a small patch for a few of the more troublesome specific cases for my own game.

Thanks for the update.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:32 pm

Taddeus, have you seen this new mod by abot? Here: http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=8835
It's called "Windows Glow expansion".

It adds new windows for Windows Glow. (Of course it does! ...duh.)

Here is the description:

Replaces ex_nord_win_01, ex_nord_win_02 with scripted dynamic glowing windows & lights, affecting mostly Seyda Neen, Pelagiad, Caldera, Dagon Fel.

Compatible/expansion to Windows Glow by Max a.k.a. ~NOBODY~
Compatible with Spuzzum's interior daylights, though both mods will add
lights to interiors.

This mod can be used alone, but it works better as expansion to
Windows Glow, especially in Pelagiad and Caldera.

While I was testing my Lite Beer! mod, I noticed that you use these types of windows at your central Food Route outpost.
(and on the exterior of your southern outpost, if I recall correctly.)

Since this mod hadn't been released yet when you added the illuminated windows to the outposts, I thought I'd mention it here.
(Mainly because they look really nice.) ^_^

If you want to see what they look like in action, the PES page has a link to a youtube video of it.
(Mind you, the video is of very low quality, but you can see the windows, anyway.)

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:28 pm

I've downloaded this mod, it seems very nice. It will be my first playthorugh using NoM, it's going to be a lot of fun. And thanks for using my stove model!

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:51 pm

Good. I guess someone should tell the maintainers of mlox, since it warns about it requiring 2.13. Also, BTB made a modification to DN ruins esp, fixed some plants not being compatible with herbalism for purists. I wonder if the same edit should be done to the DN_NOM version of DN Ruins.

As I said, from what I see in the CS, it seems to me that the DN_NoM esp should work well with NoM 3.0 too. You could warn john.moonsugar to update the mlox rule after playing it for a bit (unless, of course, you find some kind of hidden conflict).
The DN_NoM version is alternative to the DN one, so yes, the edits should be done in it too.

Well, like I said, skills from NoM foods would have been nice to have, but I figured that was how you felt on it. I'm happy enough if you're willing to do something with the fire functions...Honestly, I'm happy enough with the mod as is, but it just seemed odd that when running it with MC I have items for sale that cost more and do less. :whistling:

If you can't add MC cooking to NoM fires, though (and I really hope you can), could you at least add the ability to tear down a fire when done with it? This is probably the feature I like best from MC's fires, as I don't like littering the remains of my camps all over the place.

Well, the first thing I'll do will be adjusting the prices of the two firekits in the NoM_MC patch. :rolleyes:
As for the fire function, I'll see how I can adjust it without making the usage of the firekit too clicky. I like the ability to douse the fire, so it will be probably in the next patch.

For future reference, that shack in Seyda Neen becomes vacant (but some of the contents are still technically owned by the deceased) after the missing Tax Collector quest. Having the fire restriction lifted after you complete it would be a huge help; after all, what good is a firepit without a fire?

The MC vs NoM bread issue should go away when I start a new character, from what I can see, but it looks like the auto-eat-only issue with some foods and the auto-eating 1 hour after manual-eating quirk will have to wait for your intervention. Meanwhile, it's still a huge improvement over the previous version, and if it's enough of a bother to me, I can try to make a small patch for a few of the more troublesome specific cases for my own game.

Thanks for the update.

Thanks, I'll adjust that activator script accordingly.
I repeat, NoM foods and MC foods are eaten in different ways. This is not something that can be solved with a compatibility patch because the two mods have a completely different take on foods (alchemy vs ingredients). However, both food types work for your hunger.
For the auto-eating 1 hour after manual-eating I have an idea on what it could be and I'll come out with a solution.
The other issue sounds really weird: maybe it's some sort of little bug in a script.

Taddeus, have you seen this new mod by abot? Here: http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=8835
It's called "Windows Glow expansion".

It adds new windows for Windows Glow. (Of course it does! ...duh.)

While I was testing my Lite Beer! mod, I noticed that you use these types of windows at your central Food Route outpost.
(and on the exterior of your southern outpost, if I recall correctly.)

Since this mod hadn't been released yet when you added the illuminated windows to the outposts, I thought I'd mention it here.
(Mainly because they look really nice.) ^_^

If you want to see what they look like in action, the PES page has a link to a youtube video of it.
(Mind you, the video is of very low quality, but you can see the windows, anyway.)

Yes, I saw it and the effect is really good.
I've been thinking about making an option for Windows Glow and NoM and I really want to create it someday in the future. Just let's say that for now I've other projects that keep me full-time busy.

I've downloaded this mod, it seems very nice. It will be my first playthorugh using NoM, it's going to be a lot of fun. And thanks for using my stove model!

Thanks. Your stove model is really great.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:10 pm

Are you still planning on updating the Version History for 3.02?

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:12 am

Are you still planning on updating the Version History for 3.02?

Yes, last time I forgot to update that section in the readme.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:48 pm

- Also: the mod will automatically select dishes like Stewed Bittergreen or Onion Soup, but it won't accept them if I drop them into the satchel for manual eating.

Can you give me more info on this issue? I can't seem to be able to reproduce it.
Do you remember what your hunger level was? Do you have any eating restriction (vegetarian/carnivore)? Any info you can give me can be precious.

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:25 am

If it only happened once, I'd dismiss it as a quirk, but it happened at least 3 times. I'm using the Omnivore option, mostly the default settings.

What MAY be happening (I'll have to wait until it occurs again to check) is that the character eats something trivial from MC (one point of Reduce Hunger) to clear some space in inventory while transporting loot, then a few hours later the NoM warning kicks in for the upcoming meal. At that point, the character can't select most standard "full meals" because he's not hungry enough, so they just sit in the food satchel without being accepted. On the other hand, he's still hungry enough to eat some "lighter" fare, so those work. If it happens again, I'll save the game at that point and then take notes on what works and what doesn't.

I'm also going to try to make a mini-patch for my own game to allow the manual eating script to accept MC crabmeat, just so it doesn't always take any Comberry or Holly Berries that I happen to have in inventory at almost every mealtime, despite choosing to "Save Ingredients".

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:13 pm

I have a question regarding the references used in NOM 3. I've added a few objects to the old NOM 2.0 refs file used to replace objects for other mods with NOM objects, using Wrye Mash. Here is my file, with my added refs under the "added by b`rad" comment:

# [Filetype: Wrye Mash Replacer]@ srcmodNOM MiniRes.esp@ replace# Staticsex_nord_well_01:	NOM_well_nord_01furn_com_cauldron_01:	NOM_cauldron_01furn_com_cauldron_02:	NOM_cauldron_02furn_com_kegstand:	NOM_kegstand_beer, NOM_kegstand_wine, NOM_kegstand_empfurn_de_kegstand:	NOM_kegstand_beer_de, NOM_kegstand_wine_de, NOM_kegstand_emp_defurn_de_minercave_grill_01:	NOM_grill_02furn_dwrv_stove00:	NOM_oven_dwrnfurn_redoran_hearth_01:	NOM_oven_01furn_redoran_hearth_02:	NOM_oven_02furn_well00:		NOM_well_common_01# Miscmisc_com_bottle_01: NOM_wine_09misc_com_bottle_05: NOM_wine_08misc_com_bottle_06: NOM_wine_02misc_com_bottle_07: NOM_wine_03misc_com_bottle_10: NOM_wine_04misc_com_bottle_11: NOM_beer_02misc_com_bottle_12: NOM_beer_03misc_com_bottle_13: NOM_beer_09misc_com_bottle_14: NOM_beer_08misc_com_bottle_15: NOM_beer_04# Added by b`radfurn_de_firepit_f:	NoM_furn_de_firepit_ffurn_de_firepit_f_01:	NoM_furn_de_firepit_f_01furn_de_firepit_f_01_400:	NoM_furn_de_firepit_f_01_400furn_de_firepit_f_128:	NoM_furn_de_firepit_f_128furn_de_firepit_f_200:	NoM_furn_de_firepit_f_200furn_de_firepit_f_323:	NoM_furn_de_firepit_f_323furn_de_firepit_f_400:	NoM_furn_de_firepit__f_400light_logpile:		NoM_furn_light_logpilelight_logpile10:	NoM_furn_light_logpile10light_logpile_128:	NoM_furn_light_logpile_128light_logpile_177:	NoM_furn_light_logpile_177light_pitfire00:	NoM_light_pitfire00light_pitfire01:	NoM_light_pitfire01Furn_De_Firepit_01:	NoM_furn_de_firepit_01

Now, I'm trying to merge a few house mods in TESC after replacing the refs and get the following error:

Missing object "NoM_furn_light_logpile" for reference during cell "A good place to stay, Bedroom" load.Missing object "NoM_furn_light_logpile10" for reference during cell "A good place to stay, Bedroom" load.

There are quite a few more objects missing but I need not post them all, since I'm sure they're all related to the same problem. My question is, have the objects changed significantly since the last version of NOM? If so, how can I find out the new objects? Can I simply update the "NOM 2.0 Refs.txt" file with the new object names from NOM 3.0, or does NOM MiniRes.esp need to be updated as well? I believe the MiniRes.esp came with Wrye Mash. Could I use the NOM Modders Res.esp that comes with NOM 3 instead?

I hope I've explained this well enough. I'd really like to get the refs replacing function to NOMinize other mods to work as it helps so much in getting other mods to work with NOM.

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:21 am

Ok I've figured it out. After reading the README :rolleyes: I learned to use NoM Modders Res.esp when creating mods with NoM references. After adding that to the merge, I still got the same errors. So I though ok, maybe I should check the load order and have NoM Modders Res.esp load 1st, and voilà. Almost flawless. The only error in warnings.txt now is:

Unable to find script 'NOM_grill_02LS' on object '_at_grill1'.Unable to find script 'NOM_cookingfire_roast_0' on object '_at_roastlog'.

If someone could shed some light on that I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, most of my problem is solved.

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:56 am

Ok I've figured it out. After reading the README :rolleyes: I learned to use NoM Modders Res.esp when creating mods with NoM references. After adding that to the merge, I still got the same errors. So I though ok, maybe I should check the load order and have NoM Modders Res.esp load 1st, and voilà. Almost flawless. The only error in warnings.txt now is:

Unable to find script 'NOM_grill_02LS' on object '_at_grill1'.Unable to find script 'NOM_cookingfire_roast_0' on object '_at_roastlog'.

If someone could shed some light on that I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, most of my problem is solved.

The error refers to two objects ('_at_grill1' and '_at_roastlog') that are not added by NoM. I don't know to which mod they belong. Maybe someone else here can point it out.

As for the Balmora fountain, I'm having a problem with it, as it doesn't seem to export correctly. If I export it, the resulting nif will make nifskope crash on opening. The weird thing is that I get the same problem with all the meshes with animated textures (like the water sources) that exported flawlessly until last week. Models with non-animated textures export correctly. The problem seems to lie in the "Use BSAnimationNode" export setting of the nif-scripts.
I tried uninstalling and reinstalling blender, python and the nif-scripts with no luck.
I even tried installing everything on a different machine with WinXP (I have Win7 on this one) but I get the same exact problems. :brokencomputer:
Oh well, I'll sort it out in a way or another, but the update will have to wait until I find a solution. If anyone can help, it would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: Ok, ignore the export problem part. It seems that after several days I found the solution right after posting it...

I reverted to older versions of the programs I'm using and this worked. I had, however, to make several tries. The configuration that works for me is:
- blender 2.49a
- python 2.64
- PyFFI 2.1.4
- nif-scripts 2.5.4

Maybe this will help someone that's in my same situation.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:48 pm

Hi! Very interesting mod, but I have some questions regarding compatibility:

1- could anybody recommend some character leveling mods that are compatible with this mod

2- are there any known compatibility issues with TLM - The Lighting Mod

3- are there any conflicts with Less Generic NPCs Project

Thx in advance.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:06 pm

1 - I'm sure any leveling mod will work just fine. http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=2030 is the popular choice.
2 - Very doubtful, although it's been a long time since I used that mod.
3 - I can't think of any reason they would conflict.

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:58 am

2- are there any known compatibility issues with TLM - The Lighting Mod

NoM is fully compatible with TLM ambient settings.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:13 pm

Hi, I would love to include some features of NOM in my mods and I run into some trouble. I followed your instructions and imported the resources from the modder's esp file via Enchanted Editor into a mod I am working on; when testing I keep getting error messages for missing global variables although they are present in the E. Editor list.
Any suggestions? Thanks.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:20 pm

The error refers to two objects ('_at_grill1' and '_at_roastlog') that are not added by NoM. I don't know to which mod they belong. Maybe someone else here can point it out.

As for the Balmora fountain, I'm having a problem with it, as it doesn't seem to export correctly. If I export it, the resulting nif will make nifskope crash on opening. The weird thing is that I get the same problem with all the meshes with animated textures (like the water sources) that exported flawlessly until last week. Models with non-animated textures export correctly. The problem seems to lie in the "Use BSAnimationNode" export setting of the nif-scripts.
I tried uninstalling and reinstalling blender, python and the nif-scripts with no luck.
I even tried installing everything on a different machine with WinXP (I have Win7 on this one) but I get the same exact problems. :brokencomputer:
Oh well, I'll sort it out in a way or another, but the update will have to wait until I find a solution. If anyone can help, it would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: Ok, ignore the export problem part. It seems that after several days I found the solution right after posting it...

I reverted to older versions of the programs I'm using and this worked. I had, however, to make several tries. The configuration that works for me is:
- blender 2.49a
- python 2.64
- PyFFI 2.1.4
- nif-scripts 2.5.4

Maybe this will help someone that's in my same situation.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:07 pm

I am pretty sure that the "roasting log" and "at_ grill1" are from the latest version of the "Ashlander Tent DX" by Gaius Atrius.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:24 pm

The package should be bain aware. It would definitely be nice to help with maintaining mods as the compatibility patches aren't picked up by bain.

» Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:18 am

I am pretty sure that the "roasting log" and "at_ grill1" are from the latest version of the "Ashlander Tent DX" by Gaius Atrius.

Yes, they're mine.

They are, as Thirsty Nord mentioned, from my mod "Ashlander Tent DX".
(To be specific, the mod's NOM addon.)

As established, they are not a part of NOM itself.