[Multi Multi]

Taddeus, here's the link you requested: http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=7612 but here's a pertinent quote from the readme:

Thanks!

Anything news on how how the new penalties will work? You wrote earlier that they will not use the drain attribute spells?

About starvation and dehydration. A everage human can survive for about a week without food but only three days without water. In the current version of NOM you can go on for over a week with both. What is you thoughts on this? Would there be any differences between the races?

As a fanatic preacher of lore correctness. The earlier version of NOM paid little attention to this. I remember when I bought wine and cheese from cyrodiil in one of the ashlander camps ^^

The ovens looks fantastic!

The actual NoM limit is 16 days without food and 8 without water. Maybe I could scale them back a little.
I'm still working on penalties. I'm really trying to stay away from attributes, because they can give strange problems sometimes. The general ideas are:
- Drain effects to health, fatigue and magicka handled by script so that it stops and don't bring you under a certain safety limit. That limit should be a % of your total health, magicka and fatigue.
- A burden curse, hoping that it won't mess inventory up.
- The loss of the ability to jump and run at a certain stage.

As turns-the-page said, I'm trying to keep imported foods out of the ashlanders camps and the telvanni area (with an exception maybe).

[brian adkins]

FYI, there is a character in LGNPC who states

Spoiler

that muffins are "an Imperial food" and suggests you go to Imperial towns to find them. You end up getting them from a cook in one of the Redoran Manors in Ald Ruhn.

I only mention it because we're on the topic of where foods should be. SInce LGNPC is widely used, I figured now would be the time to preserve whatever continuity there is.

Also, a healthy person who gets no water, including from food, could last about 10 to 15 days in ideal environmental conditions (i.e. cool temperatures, no exertion/comatose). Death resulting from dehydration can occur in as little as two days for a sick person or someone who is exerting lots of energy in a hot climate. As for going without food, people have survived up to two months or more. Mind you, none of these people were out trying to rid the world of Dagoth Ur.

I would say, from a survivalist POV, a stupid, but healthy adventurer wandering around in a dry area where there is nothing but dead wood and/or rocks, might last three days, but by the end of the second day he/she wouldn't be able to lift a weapon and after that, it's a toss up as to whether they die of thirst or rat bites. As for food, the ill-effects would start after just one day without food and by the second week, he/she would probably only survive if hidden well enough to avoid being attacked, but not so well that rescuers can't find them. In other words, unless you're stumbling into town right about then, the only way you'll live is if someone comes to you.

The previous information is from: Survival Topics: Your Online Survival Kit!http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-long-can-you-live-without-food/ and http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-long-can-you-survive-without-water/ as well as a lifetime of practical knowledge concerning this subject.

The two things that have kept my PC alive out in the wilderness when I was dumb enough to leave without preparing are the fire kit and the waterskin. One thing though _Taddeus_, I think the PC should be able to burn meat on the bare fire from the very beginning. It doesn't have to taste good, it would be covered with ash if there weren't some sort of spit, but meat is the most prevalent food and you can't always lay your hands on an ash yam in the wild.

[Budgie]

The two things that have kept my PC alive out in the wilderness when I was dumb enough to leave without preparing are the fire kit and the waterskin. One thing though _Taddeus_, I think the PC should be able to burn meat on the bare fire from the very beginning. It doesn't have to taste good, it would be covered with ash if there weren't some sort of spit, but meat is the most prevalent food and you can't always lay your hands on an ash yam in the wild.

Personally I just make sure I have my grill with me when I go out.

[Krystina Proietti]

Ironically, I saw "sweetroll" and read "sweet troll". Suffice to say the picture pleasantly surprised me.

I've met a couple of rather sweet "trolls". The term originally refers to a toll collector: a "troll" collects a "toll". The fantasy version is merely an exaggeration of the stereotypical miserable and despised old toll collector hiding under the bridge he's guarding, because he's too poor or lazy to afford or build a proper "troll booth" to avoid the rain or harsh sun. They only started invading the internet forums relatively recently.

[April D. F]

Personally I just make sure I have my grill with me when I go out.

Makes sense, but it can be a burden and an immersion-breaker for players who are small and/or travel light. I didn't start carrying the grill with me until I started using a pack guar mod. I really can't see a fairy or a halfling lugging around a grill that's bigger than they are.

[Siidney]

FYI, there is a character in LGNPC who states

Spoiler

that muffins are "an Imperial food" and suggests you go to Imperial towns to find them. You end up getting them from a cook in one of the Redoran Manors in Ald Ruhn.

I only mention it because we're on the topic of where foods should be. SInce LGNPC is widely used, I figured now would be the time to preserve whatever continuity there is.

Also, a healthy person who gets no water, including from food, could last about 10 to 15 days in ideal environmental conditions (i.e. cool temperatures, no exertion/comatose). Death resulting from dehydration can occur in as little as two days for a sick person or someone who is exerting lots of energy in a hot climate. As for going without food, people have survived up to two months or more. Mind you, none of these people were out trying to rid the world of Dagoth Ur.

I would say, from a survivalist POV, a stupid, but healthy adventurer wandering around in a dry area where there is nothing but dead wood and/or rocks, might last three days, but by the end of the second day he/she wouldn't be able to lift a weapon and after that, it's a toss up as to whether they die of thirst or rat bites. As for food, the ill-effects would start after just one day without food and by the second week, he/she would probably only survive if hidden well enough to avoid being attacked, but not so well that rescuers can't find them. In other words, unless you're stumbling into town right about then, the only way you'll live is if someone comes to you.

The previous information is from: Survival Topics: Your Online Survival Kit!http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-long-can-you-live-without-food/ and http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-long-can-you-survive-without-water/ as well as a lifetime of practical knowledge concerning this subject.

The two things that have kept my PC alive out in the wilderness when I was dumb enough to leave without preparing are the fire kit and the waterskin. One thing though _Taddeus_, I think the PC should be able to burn meat on the bare fire from the very beginning. It doesn't have to taste good, it would be covered with ash if there weren't some sort of spit, but meat is the most prevalent food and you can't always lay your hands on an ash yam in the wild.

I will add the compatibility for muffins, but I don't think I'll add them directly to the game. This way, whatever the vanilla quests and LGNPC are doing with muffins won't be in danger because of NoM.

For death conditions, I think that a good compromise is 5-6 days for water (3 days is more realistic maybe, but a bit too harsh on the player) and 10-12 days for food. Since the 3rd day without water or the 6th without food the character will progressively lose his/her abilities to jump and run. Also, the increasing burden penalty should simulate the enfeeblement of the character.

As for early cooking, I'm adding a copy of the first book (Basic Cooking) to Arrille's tradehouse, so if you want you'll be able to buy it and learn its simple recipes immediatly. For the meat you'll need to carry around the grill, sorry.

[Alister Scott]

That makes sense. Grills don't fold up and go in your pocket any ways. So they're gonna be big and cumbersome.

[Dawn Porter]

You can make a spit out of things you can find in the wild and even cook meat on a smooth rock, but that grill is prohibitive. I may have to find some sort of satchel to keep my food in and just not use the grill when adventuring.

Oh hey, that reminds me. There is a dwarven oven in the rock wall of Bethamez (Gnisis Lower Eggmine) . . . I'm thinking this one wouldn't be usable, though the cooking scripts are on it.

[Steven Nicholson]

If the problem is the dimension of the grill, in the opening post there's a picture of the two new grills I have modeled to replace the old one. The rectangular one is smaller than the current grill you have in your game and the round one is half the rectangular. So if you want a small grill, just buy the round one, it should suit well you.

As for the dwarven oven, I replaced all the working dwarven ovens (at least I think ) with NoM functional ones in the version of the mod you have. The one you point out is damaged and not functional.

[Cathrin Hummel]

I notice you (Taddeus) keep mentioning burden "curse" as a penalty... I'm wondering if you really intend it to be a curse as a spell type. If so, you should know there are glitches involved with the use of curse and remove curse, though I can't recall just what they are at this moment. I know toccatta (among others) know exactly what the issues are, as he's the one who informed me about it. so you might want to ask him.

[Betsy Humpledink]

Oh, Taddeus, my friend. I just noticed a drunken shader to MGE. I'm sure that you could do some fun things with it using MWSE.

[Kat Ives]

I checked out the grills. I guess it all depends on what they're "made of". They strike me as cement and heavy iron. If that's the case, even the smaller round one would be the first thing out of my rucksack. What I'm talking about, _Taddeus_, is somthing like this: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/learning/hunter_education/homestudy/outdoor_skills/images/spit.gif. This is the most likely cooking setup anyone traveling on foot would use. With such a setup, one could roast anything they could skewer and depending on the solidity of it, hanging pots and dutch ovens could be used (though these would also add to a hiker's weight.

At the very least, a fighter might stick a fish on a spare arrow like a marshmallow. I'm not suggesting you do it for this release, but I think it would make a realistic add-on for the player to be able to spit-roast that rat he/she just killed.

[sam westover]

He's already said the new Dunmer foods mean everything should be in the right places. No cyrodiilic brandy in the Urshilaku camp.

sorry, I re read the thread and found the answer you are referring to.

Thanks!


The actual NoM limit is 16 days without food and 8 without water. Maybe I could scale them back a little.
I'm still working on penalties. I'm really trying to stay away from attributes, because they can give strange problems sometimes. The general ideas are:
- Drain effects to health, fatigue and magicka handled by script so that it stops and don't bring you under a certain safety limit. That limit should be a % of your total health, magicka and fatigue.
- A burden curse, hoping that it won't mess inventory up.
- The loss of the ability to jump and run at a certain stage.

As turns-the-page said, I'm trying to keep imported foods out of the ashlanders camps and the telvanni area (with an exception maybe).

again, sorry for not reading the tread properly.

What kind of issues are there with the drain attribute spells? Would scripts that permanently alters your attributes and resetting them when you have eaten also mean issues?
I've thought about using damage fatigue for the more severe levels of hunger, but that effect seems bugged when used as abilities, diseases etc. It always reduces both the maximum fatigue and the current fatigue until it is reduced to zero. But when the ability and disease is removed the fatigue springs back to its original value (both current and maximum).

[yessenia hermosillo]

I notice you (Taddeus) keep mentioning burden "curse" as a penalty... I'm wondering if you really intend it to be a curse as a spell type. If so, you should know there are glitches involved with the use of curse and remove curse, though I can't recall just what they are at this moment. I know toccatta (among others) know exactly what the issues are, as he's the one who informed me about it. so you might want to ask him.

I read through the old NoM threads and I noticed a discussion on curses, but it was about the buggy behaviour of the Remove Curse effect. I don't use that effect, but simply add and remove the curses with the AddSpell and RemoveSpell commands, which should give no problems. I have to use the curse type of spell because otherwise the script doesn't add the effect on the PC, but makes the PC learn the spell instead.

Oh, Taddeus, my friend. I just noticed a drunken shader to MGE. I'm sure that you could do some fun things with it using MWSE.

Yes, I'm planning to add that (or something like that) in an MGE version of the mod. That shader could be used instead of the current Blind effect. However, I have to finish the basic release first.

I checked out the grills. I guess it all depends on what they're "made of". They strike me as cement and heavy iron. If that's the case, even the smaller round one would be the first thing out of my rucksack. What I'm talking about, _Taddeus_, is somthing like this: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/learning/hunter_education/homestudy/outdoor_skills/images/spit.gif. This is the most likely cooking setup anyone traveling on foot would use. With such a setup, one could roast anything they could skewer and depending on the solidity of it, hanging pots and dutch ovens could be used (though these would also add to a hiker's weight.
At the very least, a fighter might stick a fish on a spare arrow like a marshmallow. I'm not suggesting you do it for this release, but I think it would make a realistic add-on for the player to be able to spit-roast that rat he/she just killed.

Uhm, I like that fire setup... maybe I can alter a bit the current campfire to make it look like that. Then you would be able to cook simple meat/fish with it. But no ribs or beef. And the nutritional values of the meat/fish cooked this way would be inferior to the ones of the grilled meat/fish, let's say halfway between the raw meat and the grilled one.

What kind of issues are there with the drain attribute spells? Would scripts that permanently alters your attributes and resetting them when you have eaten also mean issues?
I've thought about using damage fatigue for the more severe levels of hunger, but that effect seems bugged when used as abilities, diseases etc. It always reduces both the maximum fatigue and the current fatigue until it is reduced to zero. But when the ability and disease is removed the fatigue springs back to its original value (both current and maximum).

Sometimes when the spells are removed, the PC's attributes don't return to their original values. The error is usually small (2-5 points), but you have to use a restore potion or a shrine to bring it back. This issue happens rarely with hunger, thirst and sleep, but it's quite recurring with drunkenness. I want to remove it by transforming the penalties into something else. Modifying the attributes via script can be a bit dangerous and create incompatibility with mods doing the same thing, I remember trying that way in the old days, but then discarding it.
I won't add drain health or fatigue effects on the player. I'll make a script that removes a bit of health or fatigue every few seconds and stops when you're sated or when your health or fatigue level drop under a certain safety limit. For example, after 3 days without food the character can't keep more that 70% of his health and fatigue. He can be cured to 100% but they will return to 70% in a few time. It's just an example, numbers are not refined yet. I think this idea, along with a little burden and the loss of run/jump ability can give a good feeling of hunger effects and at the same time be very controlled since the majority of it is handled directly by script.

[Life long Observer]

Uhm, I like that fire setup... maybe I can alter a bit the current campfire to make it look like that. Then you would be able to cook simple meat/fish with it. But no ribs or beef. And the nutritional values of the meat/fish cooked this way would be inferior to the ones of the grilled meat/fish, let's say halfway between the raw meat and the grilled one.

Thank you for considering it! I like the idea that food cooked this way will be inferior, as it would be. Foods cooked on a primitive spit like this one (without a rotisserie and/or by inexperienced adventurers) are usually burnt on one side and undercooked on the other. It can be seasoned after cooking, but if done before all the spices either fall off or burn off. Heaven help you if the meat falls off . . . maybe there could be a chance of that early on???

Don't get me wrong, I fully intend to use your grills, but I'll leave them at base camp with the pots and pans unless I have my pack guar with me.

[kennedy]

Heh, Elaura's right. Now that I think of it I do tend to give the grill to a companion to carry, then forget about it and end up carrying cooked food on my journeys rather than camping, cooking and eating.

[Shaylee Shaw]

Another thing i've noticed is that the campfire that the campfire kit spawns, does not emit any light. How about a script that spawns a lightsource when the campfire is placed and removes it when it goes out?

[Cartoon]

Thank you for considering it!

Well, getting valid ideas is one of the purposes of these threads, isn't it?

Another thing i've noticed is that the campfire that the campfire kit spawns, does not emit any light. How about a script that spawns a lightsource when the campfire is placed and removes it when it goes out?

Fixing the campfire light is in the list of things to do.

[Tiffany Holmes]

Fixing the campfire light is in the list of things to do.

Great news! The coziness will be over 9000.

[Benjamin Holz]

I'm now in the process of updating the shops, adding the new foods to them for sell and for display. This is very time consuming because I'm a bit a perfectionist and because I keep creating new meshes to make the shops more detailed. One of the things I'm most proud of are these containers which I modeled to give a little variety to the game besides the usual crate/basket/sack triad.

http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy227/_Taddeus_/NOM/CookieJar.jpg?t=1273842456 - I spent ages to achieve the correct texture colors and alpha/reflection values.
http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy227/_Taddeus_/NOM/LardJar.jpg?t=1273842455 - A jar for storing lard, like the ones I remember from my childhood.
http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy227/_Taddeus_/NOM/SaltSugar.jpg?t=1273842453 - Small salt and sugar sacks, ideal for kitchens.

Unfortunately the screenshots look a bit strange because they were so dark that I had to add some brightness with Paint.net. In game the whole ambient looks more natural.

[Penny Flame]

The sugar and salt sacks are my favorites! No more piles on my countertops!

[Hussnein Amin]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Incredible work Taddeus! You're slowly changing NoM from "a nice add-on" to an "OMG, can't live without it" mod!
Every time I see the new models and features I start drooling. I can hardly wait for this to be released. Keep up the great work. :tops: :clap:

[Phoenix Draven]

I really love the pics you uploaded today, especially the lard jar. Are those eggs in the basket next to it?

[Kevan Olson]

- Many new foods are being added to the mod. They're mostly local, to address the unbalance in favor of the imported ones. Now the local foods are more than the imported ones and every merchant has a wider variety to offer. New foods include sausages, jerky and sweetrolls!
- The new variety of foods allows a better distribution of the local/imported foods. For example, in the zones more hostile to the empire (Telvanni, ashlanders) it's very unlikely to find imported stuff.
- An option for manual eating (cross fingers hoping for it to work).

I've left Morrowind for several months now, and this is the first thing I see right after reinstalling! This is amazing!
The models and new foods' description look outstanding and I'm so happy to see that Dunmers are getting more things to eat other then rats!

A small question: would the new ingredients be added to creatures' leveled list? Like guars dropping guar meat, etc? If so, would it also be possible to add the wolf meat to the wolves' leveled list and same thing for bears as well?

About manual eating, I don't mind not having complete control about when my chars eat and what they eat. Like some others pointed out, it's mostly about being able to "force" the eating script to kick in earlier then expected. I'd be 100% happy with a magical fork that you equip in order to eat the food in inventory and get rid of the penalties, without having to stand there waiting (I tend to play "survival mode" with NOM, where I try to be as self-sufficient as possible without relying on purchased food. It's hard, but fun. And the delay before the eating scripts kick in can be deadly).

About the location of imported foods, that sounds great. It bothered me just a little that foods imported from Cyrodiil were so easy to find everywhere, even areas with no Imperials or where they're not welcome.


I look foward to pluck a cliffracer's dead carcass and eat it. Take that, pesky bird-thingie!

[J.P loves]

I really love the pics you uploaded today, especially the lard jar. Are those eggs in the basket next to it?

Yes, they are chicken eggs.

A small question: would the new ingredients be added to creatures' leveled list? Like guars dropping guar meat, etc? If so, would it also be possible to add the wolf meat to the wolves' leveled list and same thing for bears as well?

I think I'll add them to the creatures' lists. However, since there are already several creature loot mods (Gluby's one comes to the mind), I'll check them first and will try to keep their approach.

About manual eating, I don't mind not having complete control about when my chars eat and what they eat. Like some others pointed out, it's mostly about being able to "force" the eating script to kick in earlier then expected. I'd be 100% happy with a magical fork that you equip in order to eat the food in inventory and get rid of the penalties, without having to stand there waiting (I tend to play "survival mode" with NOM, where I try to be as self-sufficient as possible without relying on purchased food. It's hard, but fun. And the delay before the eating scripts kick in can be deadly).

Manual eating will let you select the foods you want to eat, but I think you'll have to wait a bit anyway. When you eat something you must wait a few seconds to consume it before you can start with something else.
You say that the delay can be deadly in the sense that you died from hunger while having food in inventory? This shouldn't happen, unless you have your weapon drawn or a spell readied. If your hands aren't free the eating scripts won't start and that could kill you.

About the location of imported foods, that sounds great. It bothered me just a little that foods imported from Cyrodiil were so easy to find everywhere, even areas with no Imperials or where they're not welcome.

The problem here is that I added things like apples and oranges to the existing leveled lists to help people find food, but this has the drawback that they spawned everywhere. The solution is removing imported foods from the leveled lists, since now there's a wider disponibility of local foods. I could add a different version of crates/barrels with the imported foods only in the zones where they should be found (imperial forts and towns, hlaalu cities, nord settlements, Mournhold).