Hello,

One thing I've been consistently confused by is, what *is* Necromancy in TES? In Morrowind, it's illegal, in Oblivion, it's supposed to not be technically illegal, but somehow the Mages Guild is allowed to legally hunt down and kill Necromancers, so, uhh, that kind of sounds like it's 'illegal' in practice. But, what *is* Necromancy? You are allowed to do Conjuration, and nobody blinks an eye if you summon a skeleton or lich in town. In fact, you get the spells to do those things *from the mages guild*. Also, binding souls in Soul Gems and using them to enchant items obviously isn't necromancy, because again, the mages guild teaches you spells and provides you with enchantment alters to do those things.

So, is Necromancy just the capturing of human(oid) souls in Black Soul Gems, or is it something the PC just cannot do in any circumstance because it is not a school of magic you have access to? Or, is access to it unlocked by gaining faction with something like the Dark Brotherhood or a group of Necromancer NPCs?

Read my sig. for the best explanation of what necromancy is, written by a necromancer.

Yeah. I'm still not seeing the difference between "Necromancy" and "Conjuration"? With Conjuration I can summon all matter of undead? With necromancy, can you raise an undead servant that doesn't disappear after 60 seconds?

Conjuration combines necromancy with it. Necromancy is the act of animating dead tissue.

Example: Summoning a lich. This is an act of necromancy but modified by conjuration. You didn't find a dead body and decide to make it live it again, you just summoned some random lich from some random area. But with actual necromancy you have to find a dead body and use magics on that body to animate it again. Like say you just killed a bandit and you use the staff of worms on him. You just re-animated that body thus using actual necromancy. But if you had killed him then used your summon skeleton spell, you would not have performed actual necromancy. Just summoned a dead body from somewhere.

Conjuration is also gameplay's way of making "necromancy" for the lazy, I guess. The way the book presents itself would mean that if a person really wanted to be a necromancer, they would have to bone collect for a skeleton, and body collect for a zombie/mummy. Ghosts summoning is conjuration though. Reason being is that you are not reanimating dead tissue, but taking a soul from the Dreamsleeve and bringing it temporarily into Nirn.

A lot of necromancy seems to be based on how well one knows anatomy, and how well one can prepare a body/bones to create useful servants.

Ok, but I guess what I'm wondering is, can the Player Character actually do Necromancy in any of TES games, or is it more just a story element (basically, a way of providing 'enemies' that the PC can legally kill)?

story element. Unless you find some mods for MW or OB

In Cyrodiil summoning undead is not considered necromancy (though in real life it is).

Necromancers summon undead, just because they have an affinity for undead.

But the things that makes them necromancers are:

- Re-animating a corpse, and

- Attempting to become a Lich, the highest goal of a necromancer

- Manipulating the energy from human "souls"

In doing the above they may dig up and an experiment with dead people and body parts.

There are a number of very good mods for this, off the top of my head I can think of Moriarcis, JPM's miniature necromancy, and CDM's necromantic experience. I like CDM's the best for spells, but Moriarcis has a good questline and Ayleid dungeon thing. JPM is a little smaller, but it works pretty well.


I believe the distinction between necromancy and conjuration is that conjuration is the summoning of a creature or weapon from the Daedra realms, while necromancy is the use of human souls to reanimate corpses. So, real conjuration was combined with necromancy in OB and MW for the sake of the game, but is not applicable to lore. Conjuration requires magic, and can only be used for a limited time, while necromancy can keep skeletons alive for years, I believe on the power of the soul.

To use an anology summoning daedra isn't considered bad, but if you could and did MAKE a daedra, THAT would be BAD.

You don't use souls to reanimate. All you need is a body (or bones, depending on what you want to reanimate) and magic. No soul required. If they were, necromancy wouldn't be given such leeway to operate legally under the empire. Plus, it makes the life of a necromancer SOOO much harder, because now they have to hunt souls instead of just bodies.

Sounds reasonable, but wouldn't then there be a time limit or an ever present drain on the necromancer's energy? I always thought that was one of the main pros of necromancy, that it didn't require magic past the original binding. And isn't that what black soul gems are for? Or am I thinking of a mod?

Actually, if I recall, it depends on what kind of thrall you want. If you want a mindless golem that does one thing at a time, you use magic. If you want an intelligent servant, you'll need a soul and to bind it to the body.

Summoning undead is most likely a function of pure gameplay mechanics, as (if I recall correctly) one could not summon undead. I suppose if one did take summoning undead as a true lore factor, then the difference would be necromancy creates permanent servants, while summoning is temporary. Permanently bound souls is most likely the reason for the necromancy restrictions (only bodies given willingly), while summoning isn't a big issue since it is temporary.

Regardless, I'd like to see Necromancy appear as a magical skill in TES V, based around rituals and a bit more time used, although it should be allowed to take in Poison (the spell Destruction lost) as a skill, along with spells such as Weakness to Disease and also the ability to afflict enemies with diseases. The power of a Necromancer would be to wear an enemy down, perhaps over weeks or months without them knowing about it, until they die from their afflictions. A Necromancer would spread filth and rot with their spells, although more prudent Necromancers would simply create servants.

Even better would be servant customization. The books on Necromancy mention skeletons being fitted with metal clamps on their knees to prevent ease of breaking or cracking after wear, while bonewalkers (the Morrowind style zombie) were fitting with metal parts to keep them together, since they were basically heaps of flesh and bone just stuck together. Different parts could be allowed for servants, such as putting four arms on a skeleton (Similar to a Bone Lord) to allow for greater use of arms (pun intended). Each addition would also have a drawback, such as four arms causing the skeleton to wear faster upon its backbones and shoulders and also be more susceptible to getting knocked off balance or falling. Each servant could be tailored through this system to fit whatever position the Necromancy required it to fill.

I liked the Shambles from Shivering Isles. I thought they were a neat idea, adn they looekd realy good.

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I like turtles.

Actually, I'd rather necromancy stays just as a reanimation school than a "grr evil magik wiff dizeez nd blak, lol" school. Of course the summonable minions can be further augmented and customized, depending on the materials used for the rituals.

It should be in the next elder scrolls,
the option to become a necromancer.
Not that i'd use it, just for content sakes.

This should probably be moved to lore, you'll get answers from the bigwigs like Proweler.

Honestly, I see no problem with Necromancy having diseases. They have never fit in with any of the other magical schools, nor has weakness to disease ever fit in with Destruction (nor did Poison, for that matter). Necromancy gives a good darker school of magic (not evil, though) for those to fit in, especially with the idea that, as a person who works with corpses all day, one would be well acquainted with the structure and workings of the human body (almost like a mortician). Disease and poison fit in well with this, as an experienced Necromancer would be able to exploit the weaknesses in the bodies of his enemies.

You are overlooking other acts of necromancy, the ghostfence is driven by necromancy in a way. Necromancy by definiton in TES(I think, I'm not a lore buff, so prove me wrong) is using souls of dead creatures/people to use magic, so I would say it's very close to the "enchant" skill, not to conjuration.

Necromancy is about reanimating dead bodies and the study of corpses. Souls have little meaning, other than what N'Gasta used them for, which was to trade with Clavicus Vile for power and knowledge. You can't reanimate a soul. You can summon it from the Dreamsleeve. You can prevent it from entering the Dreamsleeve, direct it and use it, but that falls under mysticism, and enchanting.

@Orzorn, where did you find that you need a soul to make an intelligence servant?

Every creature, living or dead, is powered by a soul. Without it, they are just lumps of flesh or piles of bones. This animating force can be contained within a soul gem, if the soul gem has the capacity. From the gem, the power can be used to power magical items. - Souls, Black and White

In Conjuration, the summoned Undead has no soul: the will of the summoner is the soul of the summoned. But in Necromancy, it would appear that souls are forced into servitude of the necromancer, and the body's rotting processes are stopped. Conjuration does no such things, and therefore does not defile the dead to the extent of Necromancy. - The Mechanics of Magicka
Souls are used in Necromancy, as they are required to make permanent servants. Conjuration simply magically animates a random pile of bones from anywhere and uses it, almost like having a flying carpet or floating sword.


Also, on the subject of Conjuration - Necromancy cross contamination:
NOTE ON UNDEAD: The summoning of skeletons and zombies within the School of Conjuration has leant it an ignorant classification among the uneducated that it is connected to the School of Necromancy. However, the differences lay within the methods. A Conjurer will magically seek out a corpse on the planes of Mundus, and magically call it forth by the opening of portals. Whether these portals link to Oblivion realms and therefore transfer the rotted body in that manner across Mundus is speculation, but a portal does open and the corpse appears to the caster. The caster may also summon an assortment of bones from various places and summon them as a single skeletal being. The Undead summoned appears from thin air, and seems imbued with life. This is, however, false. Every action performed by an undead minion summoned through the methods of the School of Conjuration is dictated by the summoner, and they exercise complete control of the minion. Their own will becomes a replacement for the deceased's soul, directing the minion as if it were truly living. When the spell wears away, the dead sections summoned fade out of existence to return to where they once lay. It is a form of pseudo-necromancy, so to speak. - The Mechanics of Magicka

Considering THE MECHANICS OF MAGICKA is a completely fan-made book based on conjecture, game mechanics, and some books. It gives a false view of necromancy because, there is nothing written in lore that states a necromancer requires a soul for a permanently bound servant. If the writer of THE MECHANICS OF MAGICKA found information that says necromancers need a soul to summon permanently bounded servants, I want to find that primary source.

Heck, even the writer of that book admits what he wrote for necromancy is dubious at best in-character.

Also, the book Souls, Black and White imply that souls are required to make an intelligent being. Undead servants are not. You cannot talk to one, they cannot converse, and they're pretty much husks of flesh or bone, reanimated through magic to carry out the whims of the necromancer that reanimated them.

So your sources of information is not to be taken with a grain of salt, because there is nothing currently in lore that supports what the writer of THE MECHANICS OF MAGICKA wrote, other than what has happened politically. There is only 1 (well 3, but it's in a volume) in-game book that really goes into detail of necromancy, and I have it linked in my sig. I haven't found anything else so far.

Souls, Black and White says nothing about a soul being required to make intelligent beings. It says only that "Every creature, living or dead, is powered by a soul. Without it, they are just lumps of flesh or piles of bones.", which basically just means to animate a body (permanently), a soul is required.

Even better, On the Preparation of the Corpse states that "While the Arts of Necromancy can be practiced on animals, such experiments rarely produce interesting results. The servant's ability to follow directions seems to be related to the subject's intelligence in life. While raising the corpse of a man, elf, or beastman can produce a useful servant, the corpses of animals produce mere guard dogs at best." I think this is a least decent evidence that a soul could be used in necromancy, as the servant does have a mind of its own unless they are intelligent enough to be properly controlled by the necromancer.

If that is not total evidence, at least we do understand that an undead person has some intelligence of their own, and are not completely mindless slaves. In fact, On the Preparation of the Corpse mentions intelligence several times, such as making a "mummified corpse with the strength to move itself. Most importantly, you will have a much stronger servant who will follow your commands with more independence and understanding."

I find it odd how a mindless lump of flesh still needs a soul. How can something that is dead have a soul? If they meant undead, how can that same person be constantly resurrected again and again if its soul can only really be captured once and used once before it's leaked right back into the Dreamsleeve?


First off, do you really expect an undead dog to be able to sweep the floors? A bear? Any animal in fact? Unless heavily trained, I highly doubt it.

Next, I don't see that much evidence. The necromancer makes it seem like your bodies have lost their soul way in advanced. The ability for an undead being to remain useful probably still stems from their brain having more cognitive abilities in life, which translates into the servant being more useful, as it gained some better basic understanding. Plus, how is the soul of a bandit yours when it was donated by the empire or you somehow stumbled upon a body while walking on the road? Makes no sense. If you ask me, this shows that if a person was intelligent, they had more apt brain functions and somewhat carries on when they're dead.

Plus, how does making a mummy magically makes it more "smart"? I can understand it being less likely to stink and decay, but being more intelligent? It's probably more independent due to the less chance of decay and falling apart because of decay, which makes it seem more independent.

Perhaps the use of a soul doesn't have to be that specific person's soul? It was only mentioned that a soul was needed, not the same soul. So a soul is needed, but the intelligence of the individual servant is determined by their intelligence in life (which also helps if the brain is intact. Skeletons have no brain left are are very simple minded).

At least that is how I interpret the information.