Does anyone feel that necromancy and summoning creatures from the planes of obilvion are too much of the same thing? While it is most likely too late to change what they have in store for us in Skyrim, I would really like the following:

1) Rising a skeleton requires bones in the area or can be directly cast on a freshly slain enemy, exploding the flesh from the corpse to rise your minion. The level of skeleton is 1/3 your conjuration. It will pick up the weapon it uses in it's former life if that is still in it's possession. Uses relatively low mana, has a long timer, moves fast but has low Hp and damage.

2) Rising a zombie requires a corpse as the target to raise a zombie which moves slowly but has high Hp and damage. The level of zombie is 1/3 your conjuration. Uses relatively low mana and has a long timer.

3) Rising a ghost/wraith requires the finger bone of a slain enemy which can be looted from corpses. This will summon a Spector of level = formal life level x your conjuration level x 1%. Uses medium mana and has long timer.

4) Rising a bone horror requires multiple skeletons of atleast 3 humanoids or a giant. The level of the bone horror is 1/2 of your conjuration. It moves slowly but hits and tanks like a truck. Uses high mana and has long timer.

5) Rising a lich is not possible.

6) Summoning creatures from oblivion is as per normal and requires no components.

Summoning falls under Necromancy

Like the Cowlicker said.

It would be pretty darned swell if there were to be a high level necromancy spell that lets you bring back the skeletal remains of a dragon.

This. I might actually use Necromancy then...

Conjuration and necromancy are not the same thing.

Conjuration is the over-arching skill. Necromancy is a subset of conjuration pertaining to raising undead creatures.

Summoning of creatures of oblivion is not considered, in the eyes of the Mage Guild, Necromancy.

Raising a undead minion is Necromancy. Summoning one doesnt make sense, because you're not exactly drawing an undead entity from another dimension or place like you would be a daedra/animal/ghost; therefore, I argue that summon magic is not the same as necromantic magic.

My understanding is that Necromancers animate undead corpses, raise the dead from a corpse, and cannot make a corpse from thin air. That is, the corpse is already existing and in proximity to the caster. The vile aspect of the Necromancer's art is that he/she is defiling the dead, not summoning it from some far off place (if the latter were true then no one would care that much because its not possibly your dead loved ones being messed with).

Furthermore, a Lich is (by my understanding) a mage who has created a phylactery and undergone the transformation into a state of unlife rendering immortality. To control such an entity in a summon-to-battle manner seems unlikely or should I say unrealistic. Raising a Lich would not be concurrent with necromantic lore. A Lich with higher cognitive powers and sentient tendencies (than a zombie) could be coerced or forced to serve as a individual henchman like a servant, but not in the capacity of a summoned character per se. One could argue that a Lich could function like a butler in a capacity associated with its skill set. Nevertheless, Liches would be treacherous to deal with and untrustworthy and the kind of Lawful Evil character needed to keep them in line would only survive so long as he/she was able to thwart attempts on his/her life by the Lich(es) in his/her service.

Necromancy is part of Mysticism. Or at least it was. Now mysticism's gone for some stupid reason.

Right for the most part, but I couldn't see a lich butler. Liches would be on average much more intelligent then mortals.(They'd have to be an apt enough mage to become one), and have had years to study magic due to being immortal. I doubt one would agree to serve anyone. Also, necromancers idolize them and wish to become liches themselves.

Wait, wait -- if summoning a skeleton is necromancy, how come I could summon skellies in Oblivion in front of the old guildmaster without him getting mad? I mean, that guy hated necromancy enough to kill himself for that belief, but you can perform that forbidden magic without repercussions? I always assumed that there was more to necromancy than the conjuring of dead bodies.

Edit: Now that I think about it, the only act you could commit in Oblivion that was specified as Necromancy was the creation and use of black soul gems.

Double Edit: So liches become liches by trapping their souls in their animated bodies after death? I suppose anything involving the manipulation of a human soul is considered necromancy, by TES terms.

Not a Lich butler, but a Lich like a butler. You misunderstand my point. A butler waits on you and caters to your requests. In that context Im referring to a servant role. I should not have used the word "butler" because its too easily misconstrued with someone who brings you food. A real butler is really just a paid servant. A Lich servant wouldnt be paid per se, more kept in line with the threat of its utter and complete destruction.

Yes, that what I'm trying to capture in terms of gameplay mechanics described in the opening post.

I understand that. I just don't think many liches would be willing to serve anyone in any capacity, aside from Mannimarco(a lich himself).

Also, to the above post. Conjuration is the summoning of beings from oblivion. Which is why the fact that you could summon skeletons, ghosts, and liches didn't make much sense. But hey, its Oblivion.

Summoning skeletons is necromancy and should by right incur the Mage Guild's wrath. Except the whole thing was not done well in terms of game mechanics and NPC interactions.

Aye but this is Skyrim now and the Emperor is dead and that means the Mage's Guild is probably waning in influence over the Winterbourne Collective; therefore, if you take over the Winterbourne Collective you should be able to dictate policy and permit Necromancy if it pleases you... and purge the ranks of those who speak against you in a very public execution.

But if Skyrim's people are anti-necromantic then perhaps they should react to you raising the dead, a mercenary sees you raise his comrade to fight him and says "Oh by the Gods, this is evil!" or "Curse you Dovakiin! He was my friend and you defile him with your vile magics!" - assuming of course he lives long enough to speak...

All I want is permanent summon, a necromancers guild and dark rituals.

Remember the unique spell power of the Staff of Worms from Oblivion.

That spell is really the only true Necromantic spell in the entire game. Thats the kind of spell a Necromancer needs to cast with his/her hands... and get reactions from NPCs for it. And the spell should not have a time limit... the stronger you get the more corpses you can raise so you have so many it crashes the game engine... or until they are butchered beyond the ability to walk and be useful.

Imagine you could dispel the magic keeping a now useless corpse animated (if you didnt leave them flailing on the ground). It would be rather awesome. But then any old mage could cast dispel on your minions and there goes your army.

IMO, it shouldn't be so easy to revive dead NPC's. Those would need rituals and blood sacrifices, or somthing more than just a click of a button.

I've always wanted a Necromancer's guild. Hell, even if it was just a reasonably in-depth initiation quest that unlocked an underground Necromancer hideout, I'd be happy.You could go there and learn a few new spells, and perhaps every so often get a quest or two. Maybe you could even learn how to perform the transformation ritual to become a Lich, I'd take that over werewolves any night of the week.

It has to be user friendly! Who wants to go to the effort of a great time consuming ritual with difficult ingredients to acquire and use to raise corpses that are gonna be a second's dragon fodder?

Hmm.... winged corpses... that would be fun to watch, really just to annoy dragons or to send them out seeking a dragon and lure it back to you. That would be fun to watch... as long as your minion brought back one dragon only.

Only the ones who do not want to die, or lose all their research. Goes with regular wizards too. The underlying reasons are also varied, and not just "MOAR POWUR!!!!"

Actually, it doesn't at all, in Morrowind, necromancy was illegal, but no one objected to training conjuration or teaching conjuration spells, and in Oblivion, we learn that the Mages Guild has banned practice of necromancy in the Guild, but guess what? The Mages Guild still trains conjuration, therefore, logic says necromancy and conjuration are entirely different. And really, it should be pretty obvious, and really, the concept is completely different, necromancy raises a dead person as undead, and conjuration summons a creature from Oblivion or some other place to serve you, while this includes undead, it also includes Daedra, and in case you didn't notice, Daedra are as much undead as fire is water, really, it should be pretty obvious that summoning and necromancy are completely different. And I'm pretty sure summoning UNDEAD isn't necromancy either, it's just summoning an already existing undead to serve you, hence why people who should be against necromancy can teach it and why no corpse is needed. Proper ncromancy would need to be an entirely seperate branch of spells, if it were implemented, though for gameplay convenience it could be handled by conjuration, perhaps as a seperate perk. Necromancy spells would require a corpse to perform, but undead summoned through this means should last until they are killed again, rather than having a time limit.

Agreed, that's why the suggested mechanics specify a longer timer in relation to mana cost. The longer timer offsets the disadvantage of having to have a corpse available while still not allowing permanent minions.

That does not however, preclude allowing permanent necomancy though the use of rituals and filled soul gems.

Nope, there was the Risen Flesh Greater Power which regenerated target NPC once a day. It was hell of a job to get it though.
But why couldn't Necromancy be the last unconfirmed skill? I know that is should be something with stealth but hey, the Necromancy term is too big to just be a part of another skill via perks. I want to play a character that can be a deadly warrior, killing off armies, only to raise the dead to side with him. Tadaah! Fun character.