Hello there people,

I've been working sometime (in my limited free times) in a mod called Alternative Oblivion Magic System. The objective of the mod is to disable the Spell Buying system of the game, and replace it with a "Specialization" selector, which opens an automatic tree of spells depending on the character's skill levels. The mod is released and working for up to Apprentice skill levels. But before I proceed with higher levels and completing the mod, I must think in the base of the progress in the gameplay.

So I need your opinions, you obviously don't have to play the mod to give your opinions. Thanks in advance.

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QUESTIONS ABOUT SPECIALIZATION, CLASSES AND MULTICLASS

A1. Specializations should be as they are right now, customizable and open wide for multiclassing of my own character skills. They usually require only one main skill, such as Restoration, and sometimes two, as Heavy Armor (Warpriest). Proceed to higher levels this way! (Default v0.30)

A2. Specializations and Classes should be ONE. Proceed with assigning specialization to pre-configured classes in the main Class Selection Menu. This would DISABLE Custom Classes and Multiclasses. But Enhance higher levels of Uniqueness between them.

A3. Specializations and Custom Classes should be separate as they are now. But Specializations should have higher prerequisites. For example, the Druid should NOT have Heavy Armor Skill. Some other could be requiring more than one Skill. For example, the Arcane Trickster requiring Illusion. This would separate the Specializations in two Groups. Low Specialization (Basic with high multiclassing options) and High Specializations (With rare prerequisites but less Multiclassing options and deeper uniqueness)

A4. Suggest your own!

QUESTIONS ABOUT SPELLS AND CHARACTER PROGRESS

B1. Spells should stay as they are now, parallel to the character leveling, in a lineal way depending mostly in the main skill (In a Restoration character, most spells unlock as Restoration Levels grow up), with some few special spells depending on other skills. (Default v0.30)

B2. Spells should be even more difficult to get, and rarer. With more difficult prerequisites and depending on more than just the main skill.

B3. I Would like to have more participation in my spell list. I would like to select my spells from a specifically designed list each X skill level

B4. Suggest your own!

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Thank you!
revolucion09

Hi revolucion09,

I noted your mod for the first time today, and downloaded. I've been looking for a mod that looks at the magic system and takes it away from vendors and has more of establishing spells based on how the skills and attributes develop. I realise your mod is not finished yet, but I liked some off what you have done, though I must say I did not envy how difficult it must be to try and make those spells from 3 mods into a Role Play choice and when to give to the player.

My suggestion or at least an idea I have been thinking about doing is:

Destruction making that Elemental only, and renaming it such. Other spells under destruction with a twist in description could easily be placed under another skill. Then separating it into Fire, Air, Water, Earth..obviously there are no OB vanilla earth type, but in Midas,LAME and SM there are some that could be called earth, plus spells that attack armour, weapons could also be used as earth, as metal comes from earth, so with not much of a leap you have the spells at your disposal for Elemental (destruction), just needs Spell name changes. You could also do combo spells like Steam from Fire and water that blinds a foe, Water and Air for chain lightning, Fire and Earth for volcano, Earth and water for swamp like spell, etc etc. AOE spells only from Journeyman on and effect all in radius including player if caught, is also another option. Also Fire, water,Air, Earth Shields (auras) taking them out of other skill groups. You could also make this a non armour only spell system, thus asking the player to make a real choice, most powerful magic spells but with thought.

These are just a few ideas. I see where you have got to is Expert level spells and master. Perhaps make the acquisitions of these quest based only, and master level introduce some Elite Monster that holds the tome on being killed for the master spell, thus making a challenge for the top level spells. Though I can see this would involve quite a lot of work.

It does feel a bit of a mine field, and your not going to make every one happy, so I would suggest doing it your way first, the way you feel you want the classes to be. Let players role play in your vision for them, and then tweak it with a broader player base of suggestions. So ignore what I wrote above

Thank you Glimiril. I am not sure what do you mean about Destruction, currently, the Destruction School is Separate in 4 Specializations, being Fire, Lightning, Cold and Life Reaver (which does damage to life living creatures, basically ). Other destruction spells such as earth or wind based, are asigned to other specializations, such as the Druid or the Mystic Controller (which is able to directly manipulate weather).

And yes, perhaps a quest based achievement is good, though it would be hard to accomplish that kind of rewarding, such as choosing which quest, which spells, where and when... I was thinking about giving master level spells with a very high prerequisite level, such as having high levels of speechcraft (as a ritual), armorer, or different combination of different skills.

I know it is hard to make everyone happy, but I thought perhaps there was a common agreement on what is good and what is bad

thanks

Oh wow I had not realized you came this far with this ... going to read the other thread now.

I'd say restrictions on learning outside of ones system with chances to break out of the system as well. So that as long as skills and level are there the powers develop along a certain line, but then opportunities to expand exist as well. And make those more rare.

I must echo the desire for quest based acquisition of spells. although i can see that this would be a monumental task. Can you still use Midas spells by researching them? Even that could be a kind of quest for the other spells - find this tome and it may teach one or two outside the system. Or, research about ingredients and rituals to be found in dungeons that complete potions to wake up new powers, or find an illusive teacher, or defeat a certain enemy and steal their notes-research, maybe get exposed to magical vortexes. Things that would not require intensive quest stages and constant

I'd hope that http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1107578-duke-patricks-combat-magic-ii/ gets taken into account at some point.

I just hate the buying spells aspect of this game - the mages guild and different 'schools' mean next to nothing either. It would be great if the various classes and specializations to approximate or relate to the 'schools' of magic and maybe even the guilds and members that are existent in the game.

Mostly though - even with LAME/SM/Midas I think NPCs are the worst magic users there are. Anything that could be done to have them use spells smarter is a boon.

[edit]
Ok have read the thread - wow seems like yesterday (actually 6 months ago) this was proposed.

I'm putting together a new game right now and this will be included. Be sure to get back to you with feedback after playing some of it.

Well, Midas Spells been discussed in the early stages of the mod, and I decided to disable their original way of getting them. Since the idea of this mod is to make Specializations Unique and avoiding everyone getting everything (besides how hard are they got), I thought it was better to include Midas Spells in the corresponding specialization, though with harder pre-requisites (to maintain them as "rare", with few exceptions in specializations that really needed some) than normal spells.

Perhaps it is a good idea to think about the mages guild in the game, in order to think about some way of organization of the mod based on Cyrodiil setting.

Well it would make sense - especially since it is jilting to have the player character in this system of magic that the official body of magic users doesn't use or recognize.

As far as quests what was implemented in Enhanced Economy is a possibility - add a few things like that to the mages in the guilds - maybe tomes that can be bought at the corresponding guilds for maps, formulas, etc.

Quests aside and having read up on this. I lean toward A3 but with notifications to the player(character) that if you earn more points in this or that skill then your chances to advance in your field are reduced.

But I don't know - even in D&D it wasn't the skill of wearing heavy armor that led to spell failure it was the wearing of heavy armor.

I can only imagine what a challenge it is to impose rules yet try and keep some of the flavor of 'go anywhere, do anything' vibe that TES games have.

[edit] I'd warn not to alter MG quests though.

[edit] then also having read up - is this now compatible with Main Quest Delayers like Start Choices - didn't see that being addressed only pointed out.

And are there leveling mod requirements? Smooth leveling as in Realistic Leveling OK?

I think some specializations will now require not to have some skills (Remember that doesn't mean you cant use them, just that you are forced to be inefficient in using them)..
On the quest related things, I don't have plans on doing it, perhaps in the future, but for now I am focused in the main system thing.

Main quest delayers are not yet compatible, but I intend to fix it in next release. Alternative Starts are compatible though. and About Recommended mods, I have pointed them in the tesnexus file site. Oscuro, Francesco or FCOM leveling style is recommended.

Ummm - huh?

The only thing about FCOM that addresses leveling is an optional OOO plugin for slower leveling which is not even in the required group of esps for installing FCOM. FCOM itself does not address leveling at all that I'm aware of - maybe slows it down a bit. FCOM and overhauls are more about scaling and the game I'm constructing now will have unleveled aspects such as TIE ... well as much as I can get that is unleveled.

I'm talking more about mods listed http://www.gamesas.com/?showtopic=790175&hl under section 4: Character levelling systems.

Is it OK to use Progress and Realistic Leveling? from the last thread I kept seeing advocating OblivionXP - that is not required is it?

Then also most alternate starts are main quest delayers. Any ETA on the next version?

Yes, anything is fine. Mostly everything is compatible with my mod. It is all about your likings, I personally suggest slower leveling mods, such as Progress, Realistic Levelings, or the levels used in OOO or Francesco's.

About the main quest delayers, I am going to include a manual mod activator item.

ETA may be tonight, next week or next month. I am currently testing the new version, and unsure of it yet.

Maybe a check to see of character generation is over?

Well that really is the only thing holding me back, but I understand - at your time/process.

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revolucion09,

Hey man how is the mod going? Sorry I had to leave the team, video card blew up in the computer. Is anyone else still working on it?

Sorry for being off topic just saying hi
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Just a side note to down loaders: I remember the only mods that were not compatible with AOMS were mods that added new or old spells to merchants that were already in the game. But any ones that added them to newly placed merchants work great.

I did an automatic detector of startchoices.esp specifically. I think that is the only delayer mod, anyways..

ps. Hi ShadowT

I released an experimental version with rare changes, you can check it out and tell me about it

I've only played with this mod up to level 4, so I don't have enough experience with it to start coming up with my own suggestions; but here is my two cents.
A1: this will allow the player to still define his own character, instead of being stuck with a spell list at the start of the game.
Option B3 could be very interesting, but I realise how much work that would be, so I'll opt for B1.

Well thanks - was this for the 35 update or a future update?

As for Alt starts that have main quest delayers here are a few of the more used ones:
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11495
Then another one by CDM called CDM character generation - but I guess that was pulled - can't find the link.

Those are the three that most I've seen use.

Still very interested in this - and may try putting in the very next game which I'm closing in on finishing the construction soon. But even so there may be a week or two of testing this new load order ... but will get back to you.

Thank you, every bit counts



Yes that one is the one I always used, that's been always compatible as well. As it triggers main quest normally..

thanks all, waiting for more opinions

So then the start choices recognition is in the 35 version or an upcoming version?

Hi, glad to see you still working on this.

I have never been a big magic user, but the whole buying spells system still annoyed me no end so thumbs up for this.

I don't plan my character as such but like him to develop naturally throughout the game. My new character (Thief) left the sewers knowing nothing of magic but soon realised he was naturally gifted (Arcane Trickster). As said I don't know how he'll develop, but would like to see his 'spell knowledge' expanding dependent on how his various skills progress.

If I understand your questions correctly, I would answer,

A3 - multiclassing is possible at lower levels but to learn the high level spells takes work and dedication to that class.

B3 - I ould like to have more participation in my spell list. Not neccesarily choosing from a list after X skill ups but as said above a sense that spells gained were somehow dependent on skills used.

All this is based on my dreadfully inexperienced level 3 character so hope I haven't picked up the wrong end of the stick. I will carry on playing.

:foodndrink:

Thanks! with experimental release 0.35 I attempted to get closer to the option A3, and B3 is a possibility in the next releases, which I think I am going to re study the spells distribution of all classes, for a more balanced and interesting game, without excess of spell lists

I expect more feedback, thanks!

@Psymon

0.35 experimental release has already the patch for Start choices and should be compatible..!

I don't really have any suggestions, but I like the idea of this mod. The idea of buying spells from a vendor always felt wrong to me.

Re save game compatibility

As this isn't a mod that can usefully be tested in an hour or two would you advise sticking with 0.3 for now?

:foodndrink:

Yes, I suggest you play 0.3 if you want to have simple fun...

0.35 on the other hand, has some changes that modify gameplay directly, such as the mana pool. Also it changes the classes and spell orders so perhaps savegames are not compatible.

Off course I would say you should backup your old savegames, and try the new version, but until I release something more tested....

have fun!

Hey revolucion,

I have not played your mod, although I have been following it with interest. I have one important note to drop here, though.

Some mods, although not directly related to magic, assume that the player can access certain magical effects. For example, Ayleid Loot Extended says in the readme that many of the objects it adds to Ayleid ruins cannot be accessed without certain spells, such as water walking, water breathing, or telekinesis. For another example, one quest from Integration: The Stranded Light (which requires LAME) requires the player to get into a hard-to-reach spot. This can be solved several ways: The player can develop high acrobatics and athletics skills and employ them trickily, they can craft a strong Fortify Acrobatics spell (requires a certain spell proficiency), or they can use, say, Icarian Leap (requires high Alteration) or another high-level Mysticism spell whose name escapes me, both added by LAME.

The point is, some mods assume you have access to vanilla magic effects, even if you are the most mundane of blunt-weapon-wielding brawlers, and may prevent you from progressing until you can cast the spell in question. Others may not strictly prevent you from progressing, but may make certain quests or enemies much harder.

As a result, it seems advisable to me that you leave some method for accessing the vanilla spell effects, at a minimum, even for non-specialist or purely mundane characters. I agree with opinions voiced here that having quests to acquire spells would be awesome, but I recognize that this may not be entirely practical or easy. An alternative that might fit reasonably within your scheme is this: Spells can be acquired even by non-specialists, but the cost (whether in money, or in effort or difficulty) is considerable, and the spells rewarded are weak and/or costly in magicka. You could perhaps also set it so that they do not grant experience, or only grant it at reduced rates. The spells could even have a failure chance, simulating the character's ineptitude. Some combination of these barriers might serve as a fair approximation to the spells in question initially being very difficult, very hard to learn, and very unnatural for the nonspecialist. Once they break the 25-skill mark, though, they might be allowed to progress as usual within some variation of your specialization scheme, by (for example) going to a member of the Mages' Guild and saying that they wish to specialize in a school of magic. These "secondary" specializations (whether belonging to magical characters trying to broaden their horizons, or to mundane characters) can be deliberately weakened in comparison to the primary specializations, but grant some practical access to basic magical effects, albeit fairly simple ones.

As to alternative non-quest-like methods to acquire spells, a few come to mind. I think spell tomes were mentioned here; you could drop spell-tome-like objects at the end of certain dungeons. You could have the player learn a very weak version of a spell after defeating an enemy (or a number of enemies) associated with that spell - wisps might teach Light, and storm atronachs might teach Lightning. You could give the player a chance to learn an effect if the player casts a certain number of scrolls that invoke that effect, or drink a certain number of potions. You could, in fact, force the player to get all the way to Apprentice skill in the relevant school of magic without being able to cast a single spell, by visiting trainers, over and over again, bleeding cash to overcome their lack of natural talent.

I hope these thoughts interest you.

Asterai

Hello Asterai,

I think this is a delicate matter related to the mod, and it is not an easy thing to address since the base idea of the mod. Though I guess we need to consider each possibility at a time.

To say first, enabling spell shops with 10* times increased costs is not a solution. Money is rarely a good restriction, but in case there is a money restriction, this wouldn't easily address some special necessities such as the quest restrictions.

What is important to talk about, is the restriction by penalties, such as spell failures when casting spells restrictive? what if the spells costs you only 10% of your magicka, how much times could you try? even if you have time, you could be able to rest and regain magicka or drink 10 mana potions. This would also automatically disable the alternative of increasing Magicka Costs in non-main-skill spells.

Another interesting point in opening the wide of spells available would be the restoration school. This is the killer of the game, the heal minor wounds, the restore fatigue and the cure disease spell. Aren't they?

Some would say in a real role playing game, not every character could do everything, so do I. Why should a Mage who is specialized in Fire, be able to walk over water? He would look for alternative ways to cross the water. And that is kind of what I am trying to do, not everyone can do everything, even excluding the costs to acquire these methods.

Spell tomes in the mod are available, that is totally true. So one could also ask himself, if I can find a Heal Minor Wound, why couldn't I be able to get it somehow else?.

I think all this always taken me to a dead end, I am not sure how could I be able to restrict the players to their character's role without ruining the game or limiting its posibilities?

Perhaps a solution is not only one, but many of them in combination, I would suggest:
- Limiting waiting time
- Increasing Mana Potions Cost and Drinking potions per day (some kind of health corruption?)
- Adding a high chance of spell failure to non-major-skill spells
- Reopening spell shops with 10* times increased costs (But should Spells even be something to "BUY"?. I think these are things that should be learned)

But is this viable? does this concern the idea of the mod? I would happily do this

Other Alternative I see is somekind of Multi-Specialization. This should be something like at a certain level, where any one could get multiple specializations and access those spells he was limited to before..

What I am thinking for next releases, is to design a spell menu, exactly as the Specialization Menu, where the Character has tho chose one spell from it, from a different choices, INSIDE his skills possibilities, and probably out, with the Restrictions I mentioned before.. isn't this good?

I am not really sure about this, but it is something to discuss
Thanks
Rev

PS. Released 0.36 with some important fixes

So getting near being able to play with new install and I just poured over the readme of version 0.36

My first response was "oh he is just trying to balance spells versus weapons and armor." Then further I was not thrilled that the skill you seem to penalize the most is heavy armor.

I was hoping more for having spell schools also thrown into the mix, such as if a class must have Destruction of a certain level but not Restoration.

Somewhere I recall bg2408 discussing the lore of the six schools of magic and that they were, if memory serves, set up in dyadic relationships. Again I'm not 100% on this, but I think this is the scheme:
Destruction <==> Restoration
Alteration <==> Mysticism
Conjuration <==> Illusion

So with these I was imagining and I guess recommending that for those who specialize in Destruction can only excel and have access to higher spells if they do not also specialize in Restoration. Doing this might spice things up more and I'd think that I'd have it so that excluding combat skills (blade and heavy armor for instance) should come at higher levels (those over the 50 or 75 mark) and that the current set should include more of the spell school dyadic exclusions.

Especially since you are also recommending overhauls like OOO where survival is much tougher. It would benefit tougher game play to not penalize combat skills (which can be difficult to not level over 25) But it would only allow certain kinds of multi-classing with more natural limitations on that. As it is now it seems that as long as one only specialized in spells and not combat skills then the sky is the limit for more magic which you then impose a limit on by requiring choices.

I haven't yet figured out if you lose spells by gaining skills in a skill that would normally exclude you from the class or how much multi-classing one can do.

Thinking on - in reviewing mods for this install I'm just not satisfied with a lot of the racial and birthsign powers - I'm sticking again with RBP scheme but was liking some of http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1090851-relz-wipz-tejons-thread-o-mods/page__view__findpost__p__15910724 and http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1075687-relz-applers-passive-birthsigns. But not the way they handled the Atronach. Just as a preliminary (non detailed) suggestion - maybe create augmentations to powers through infusing spell school specialization or have the birthsigns be something that is part of the exclusionary group.

Also I posted http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1086758-wip-alternative-oblivion-magic-system/page__view__findpost__p__16495337.

thanks