The main use I had for spellmaking playing an assassin was a shorter duration waterbreathing spell because the one the dev had available in the shops required too much mana for my character. Actually a shorter duration spell was far enough for what I had to do and I could cast it several times if needed. I hope they keep that in mind when designing spells. And yes back in daggerfall going underwater was a real issue...

So I suppose they are doing varying effect similar to different attacks with a weapon, like according to what direction key is pressed or mouse movement ( in Daggerfall ) I am wondering how they are going to make different effects for non elemental spells though. For instance restoration alteration or illusion spells. Are they going to make area effect one of the variations? Then there would be area effect healing invisibility etc? Not sure how useful that feature would be though...

That's not how it's been stated to be, either. There is nothing to say that we won't have different strengths of spells, and infact I think it highly likely we will. You will probably buy them the same way you bought them in previous games. Different flamethrower spells or explosion spells or even generic fireball spells can still have different sizes (range) and damage capabilities. You just won't be able to do that yourself, you'll have to buy them in shops.

Certainly, spellmaking is more mage- than sorcerer-like (in the D&D sense), but I thought of it as a fun outlet for player creativity and that the brakes on it in Oblivion (access to the Arcane University, skill in the discipline, and enough mana to cast the spell) were sufficient. Perhaps though using a charm spell on someone should leave them with feelings of vague distrust for you, so that they'd like you a lot briefly, but your permanent rep with them would drop a couple points after the spell wore off?

Yes, they were a lot fo exploits and they should be fixed. The vast majority would be fixed if you didn't let multiple spells of the same effect stack outside of damage. In other words if you cast weakness twice all you should do is extend the duration. Then maybe put minimum magika/skill reqs costs in for spell effects. Damage whether it is 1 or lets say 10 should cost the same magika so you don;t try to cheese low damage spells for leveling up, charm the duration should have a minimum cost so you don't try to cheese merchants by speed selling in the new real time conversation system. That would handle probably 90% of the current exploits. An improve AI would solve the invisibility based ones, but that was possible without the spell making thing, just required 2 spells instead of one.



The new system at best saves me a hotkey, that does not = win. Oh if you hold it down it creates a flamethrower look at how cool that is. Um pressing 2 for a flamethrower spell and hitting the mouse key does the same thing. And no, the only reason behind spell making was not to make god spells. Maybe for someone like you it was, but not me and many others. I never made exploit spells, I never felt the need to. I made spells because ever since 1e D&D that is what made mages cool. If all you want to do is throw spells just buy a staff.

And this is the fault of spellmaking? No, thats because of crappy level scaling.

Just because Oblivion got it wrong with level scaling, you were forced to create stupid spells (couldn't turn down that difficulty slider could you?) and in turn people decide spellmaking is bad?

People come up with reasons for everything, and the reasons I am hearing for spellmaking being removed do not make sense. If this were the problem, its level scaling. If 2-3 second spells was the issue, blame conversations from not being in real time. And if people made exploits and didn't like having the ability to exploit, maybe beth should get rid of our modding utilities so that they don't feel the pressure to "cheat" by making a mod allowing them to do so...

I made a spell that could one-hit most enemies, and the ones it couldn't one-hit were as good as dead anyway. And the huge difference between my spell and a vendor spell was that you didn't need to be playing as a high elf born under the mage sign with a class that specialises magic and favours intelligence and willpower in order to use it. Nor did you need enchanted armour to cast it; only to cast it more than once per minute and in my opinion, not being able to cast it more than once a minute still left it a huge balance breaker once I'd created it.

If anything good comes of the removal of spellmaking it'll be that I might find a use for my sword again.

And I'll accept the spreadsheet anology if someone using it can prove they've had to do an entire course on how to use Microsoft Office Excel. Excel bored me to the point I almost ran out of time on the course; spellmaking in Oblivion wasn't nearly as boring. How do I know this? I never almost fell asleep while doing that, but while doing Excel, I probably spent most of my time with my eyes shut.

What they need is for spellmaking to actually involve using the spell effects you intend to use in a way that makes sense for it to eventually create a new spell. You know, like a minigame, rather than a menu.

Spreadsheet probably wasn't the best anology. It was more like filling out a form. I'd say a requisition form but I've never even seen one, so I can't make an accurate comparison.

Granted, given that if you could make good spells at spellmaking altars you'd inevitably become unfairly overpowered, it may be for the best anyway.

It was more than just the level scaling. Its about trying to make the character the best you can. I have a severe case of always trying to be the best I can be, I blame sports. I'm not going to hold myself back, or make things easyer for myself because the game mechanic is broken. I play on the console, so I cant mod in or out anything either.

Its not like I hate spellmaking. Its a really cool feature, and I hope they find a way to get it in. However, it has more than its fair share of problems. Problems that need to be fixed. You can't get around that fact. With real time conversations, charm spells become a lot less overpowered...but it will still be an issue if menu's where you buy things freeze time still. And there are other things that need to be held back.

The player shouldn't have to hold themselves back in order for the mechanic to work properly. That's not a good game mechanic, one that needs fixing. I think the character should get to be overpowered, but I think you should have to work for that for a long time. It shouldn't come so easily as it does with spellmaking. You shouldn't have to ignore obvious things that will make your character better, because they are exploits. Its the players goal to make the character better and to have a fun time doing it. The player shouldn't have to ignore things that will make them stronger...that's their goal in the first place.

This goes for all exploits in a game. They should be fixed, simply because they are there. Its not a matter of not using it or not...its a matter that it exists in the first place. If the world is to feel believable, it has to play by the rules. Things that break the rules shouldn't be allowed to stay in the game, because it makes the game less believable. The character should be able to use all that is at its desposal to win, because that is what anyone would do in a life or death battle. If the things the character can use to win is unfair and an exploit of the game however, then that breaks from what the game is about.

The game should be set up in a way that makes it so the player can use everything at its desposal to win...to survive a battle while at the same time holding the player to the rules of the world.

Its like if you in the real world happened to have super speed. You're so fast that that people can't even track you with their eyes. Should you just ignore that fact about yourself, because it breaks the laws of physics in our world and is unfair to other people when you're playing with them? Its really as simple as that. You shouldn't have to pretend that a part of yourself doesn't exist, because it would give you an unfair advantage in sports.

Even when role playing...its a simple fact that a mage would want to get stronger than what they are at now. Very few role play characters would avoid using stronger spells. They would be afraid of the power they could gain by using those spells, so they choose to use weaker ones. Thats it really. Most roles that are mages want to get stronger, and the best way to do that is with spellmaking. The character wouldn't gimp themselves because they don't want to be overpowered. No, that's the players wish. The character itself would want to get stronger, its the player who doesn't want to cheat. Once the player makes a decition that the character wouldnt make...the roleplaying is broken. Youre not really role playing at that point.

The game shouldn't be like that. You shouldn't have to roleplay as a mage who is afraid of what they could become, just for the mechanic to fit into the game world.

Once again this goes into the if you don't like it, don't use it arguement. Just because you can not control yourself when it comes to spellmaking means every player should have options removed? When I make charm spells I keep a duration of 10 seconds on them. I don't use fortify exploits, except fortify acrobatics for 8 seconds, but thats hardly an exploit.

I do agree they should put in some balance, but that is hardly the best route. When making a decision, you are supposed to find the most efficient way to accomplish your goal. In this case, one thing to consider is the least obtrusive way to balance magic. Is it either A, remove it all together, or B, add tweaks, make menus in real time, certian spell effects cost more with magnitude, some spell effects can't be used in spellmaking.

There was never a need for creating exploits, I didn't. A lot of players didn't. And just because a lot of players feel spellmaking is just a way to make "god spells" and clearly didn't use it to its full potential means we need to just get rid of it. The new system won't replace it, no matter how cool it might be.

And because you play sports you feel like the difficulty slider doesn't work for you? Then don't complain about a broken system if you can't use it right. This reminds me of the few arguements of, "I don't like argonians so we should just get rid of them, they aren't cool."

Seriously, I really like the idea of spellmaking. I really do. Its not like I want it gone, I want it fixed.

Making a character that isn't as strong as it could be is counter-intuitive. The character would almost never hold themselves back, but the player should in order for the mechanic not to be overpowered? I really don't see the logic in that. The game should do that in the first place, not leave it up to the player to decided if they want to use the mechanic to its fullest or not.

If you held yourself back, then you didn't use spellmaking to its fullest potential. Using spellmaking to its fullest potential makes you a god among mortals, despite what dificutly you play at. If you held yourself back, you're playing the way the game should be in the first place.

Its not like adding the 10 seconds to the charm spells did much. It just cost more magicka to use, and took a little longer till you could make that spell. The game should hold you to that in the first place. I've played holding myself back...its not like I can't do it. I can, and I did. I had to physically hold myself back in the real world, which takes away from the role playing part of the game. It was me who wanted to play what I think the rules should be, not my character. That right there removes the role play aspect from the rpg. There's only role that can be played like that, and its yourself. Any other character in their right mind would use everything to their advantage. Only exceptionally deep characters who don't want to kill or be strong would hold themselves back.

Really, I've played one of those characters before, and it was okay. I had to fiddle with the slider so the character wouldn't get his rear end handed to him at every battle, but I did it. The simply fact that I knew this character could be stronger was constantly eating away at me, but because of th role I held to the weaker spells.

It was fun too. I had fun, besides the fact I knew there were stronger spells out there. But I probably would have had even more fun if the character had been like that on his own free will, instead of me forcing that character to act like that. That character had to be like that so the mechanic wouldn't be exploited. I'd much rather have that character be like that by choice, of its own free will instead of so that the game isnt exploitable.

Like I said, I don't think its lame, and I freaking want it in. Stop thinking I dont, cause I really do want to see it in. However, I want the exploits removed, so that characters choose to be who their are, instead of being forced to be that way due to exploitable game mechanics. And how do I not know how to use the difficulty slider right? I put the darn thing where I want it, challenging both myself and the character. That's just who I am, because of sports and the people I play sports with played a big part of my life. I want a challenge to be given to me by the game, not me challening myself by holding my potential back in order for the game not to be exploitable.

I dont see anything wrong with saving up 4 black or grand soul gems and making an ueber spell. Maybe the spell making ability could be balanced by rarity of soul gems or expense of creating your own spell....But I dont want it to be limited in power if I can provide the materials!

Well for first how long are you play RPG?
I don't believe you wait 20 years since you 27 year old and Arena out in 1994 so only 17 years, and I hardly believe thats 10 year old boy play Arena and have much experience of other RPG to say thats magic is boring.
For second if you play RPG already 20 years cool FX will don't care at all you at all, cool text description works much better as FX, you will more care about different spell effects but spells for you
Well you have option just don't use spellmaking, use only premade spells leave spellmaking for others or try to understood how it can be fixed


What I can say script effect is awesome addition in Oblivion thats really magic unique, make an scripted spell in morrowind is much harder work then in oblivion, I believe all spells in new magic system just overhauled premade ones to be more unique all of them now have script effect, leveling and different visuals like FX and animation, but system is still similar to classical one, spellmaking become dynamic work on fly in game and tweaked by skills and perks and there is possibility to make new spells in CS.

All spells have different visual effects they not just same colored balls, they maybe not so specular like in JRPG but have many possibilities in combination of spell effects, those effects in compilation with scripting can simulate all spells from other magic systems and games.
FX is not a problem since they can be added by scripts look at Midas Magic thats great example or look at other great magic mods also, even different animation can be done.
According to you words, spells must have static magic effects and cool FX, thats not have magical feel at all and fit more to guns and not to actual spells, maybe enchanting and alchemy also need to be reworked into premade enchants like Sigil Stones or receipts for alchemy potions, they boring like spellmaking also?

There is no useless spells all spells what mentioned have their places in game,
listen you they are useless maybe you will even approve removing them at all, but I will say removing of features is wrong way, features must be fixed not removed completely

Telekinesis become better in oblivion and now have more options then in Morrowind, there can be some improvements alsohttp://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1172455-telekinesis-possibilities/

Feather yes in compare with fortify strength its looks bad, but if Feather effect become combined with slowfall there will be difference also if feather have smaller cost then fortify strength difference between spells become better and Feather become useful.

Light also good utility spell for marking enemy and lightup dark places in forward just need some improvements, for first Night and dungeons must be darker then before (thats will make all light source useful not only Light spell) for second combine it with blind effect (was in Morrowind but removed from Oblivion) on target, light spell can do damage to vampires
Difference between Light spell and Nighteye will be better in oblivion light source penalize stealth no torches or light spells when sneaking around so use Nighteye if you want sneak, but how about add this to NPC also, why this apply to %PCname? NPC mages can use light spell and detect life for searching sneaky characters, but NPC also must sneak around and try to critical stab so detect life and light spells will be useful player also.

Well yes someone can say thats quietly annoying to recast resist spells every 10 seconds, there can be some possibilities to fixing it make shielding spells have more work time or make dynamic ward protection when player need cast spell at time of enemy cast to nullify incoming danger thats like timed block with shield or parry with weapon but for spells
http://tesalliance.org/forums/index.php?/files/file/780-duke-patricks-combat-magic-ii-duke-patricks-incursion-into-fortress-of-fear/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTOynB6Z-Rw
or
Spellshields
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=21629
Both versions can work together, overtime protection can be achieved by Skillful mages thats have great reserves of Magicka to maintain such spells while apprentices will use more adrenaline action counterspells.

Well if skill caps on maximum and minimum will be added there will no of long charging time for mage



Yes I also did not see it but there is some ways
First one premade enchants like sigil stones and static spells but unique spells no customization at all
Second one dynamic spellmaking and better and improved enchanting based on encanting system of morrowind and daggerfall
Third one spellmaking can be perk in enchanting skill, enchanting system work like in Oblivion


Thats good idea put spellmaking into enchanting as an perk since both can work with known spell effects, both are magical skills and great expand of crafting for mages since alchemy is stealth skill now, if spellmaking will be perk it need some requirements like some level in schools of spell what we want to create, limitations thats added to enchant can be applied to spell making also so no need to create new rules for them, spellmaking will be like enchanting of mind for mage there is also can be perk for remove usles spell from memory just like disenchant an item.


True words, its an RPG Todd say we can do all and can be all what we want be, why need to remove features if they can be fixed?
Only because some one didn't have willpower to deny for self to owerpowered features and then cry about gamebreaking everywhere

Spellmaking is, by itself, a great form of freedom - BUT - if it comes at the cost of the spell range being larger and more epic, then I say scrap it. The question we all gotta ask ourselves should be "Do we even need to create any spells from scratch? Will we be so satisfied with the new system that custom spells become redundant, at least to most players?"

If the above is true, then to heck with the spellmaking system and let's just allow players to choose between a massive range of tailored spells. Oh, and Bethesda - do include the "Clairvoyance" effect I once suggested to you, with which you're able to surrender your vision for the vision of your target (as a tactical feature in the game, especially for patrols and whatnot). Just imagine being able to discover a new place on the map because you just took the vision of a target Dragon and it started flying over the area.

Cheers.

But the new system doesn't make custom spells redundant. It allows one spell to be modified slightly into a few other effects. So we can have a flamethrower, a fire rune, a typical fireball, from one spell. Maybe there is a mechanic to cause that one spell to do more damage, like "charging" or wielding it in both hands.

That doesn't negate the need or desire for custom spells. Some people think spellmaking is just for making better spells, and to them this is fine. A lot of players think more about the customization though, which this doesn't replace. This system even has limited scope in how much better your spells can get, so maybe we will see the same issue we had with Oblivion, some enemies will get so difficult that the best spells don't hurt them significantly.

The reason I enjoy spell making also is that it allows me to not be limited by pre-defined spells that the developers thought of. If we had no spell making, we are totally limited by what the devs thought up. Its obvious that they can't think of everything (devs are often surprised at the things that players figure out that the developers never thought of), and that's why its good to have spell making. I don't want to be limited by what SOMEONE ELSE thought up. I want to only be limited by my imagination. Emergent gameplay is a very, very good thing to allow.

Well you can't really come up with anything that surprising I'm sure, because all you are already limited to the effects the devs added to the game already, the only thing you change is the combination/duration/magnitude, I'm sure they don't go "this person combined spell a and spell b for duration c, holy [censored] why didn't we think of that!" No custom spell is really that surprising to the devs. They could have done better on pre-made spells in OB yes, but I'm sure they learned from past mistakes and if they were to remove spellmaking they would surely improve them.

I think you are missing the point. He, and I, don't want to be limited by what the dev's thought of. Its not just magnitude, duration, area, its also the name, and other affects you added together.

I doubt the dev's made a fireball spell for 10 magnitude, with healing for another 20? Not very useful, but it can be fun. Also, useful for training on guards, not that they appreciate it...
There is always something unique you can create, that the dev's won't put in.

One thing that I'd have to say was surprising was the permanent summon glitch from Morrowind, which was a combination of soultrap and a summon spell. Its funny because it also made lore sense, in a way (you were trapping the soul of the creature in this world). That one was neat.

But, my point stands, and I'm sure you see it. They better have some DAMN good pre-fabricated spells if they want magic to be fun and interesting, because I will SORELY miss spell making if they removed it. I think its better to let the player figure out how they want to play by just giving them the basics, as opposed to giving them clear cut pre-fabricated spells. That just cheapens the experience to me, and makes it feel like a dev is standing over my shoulder telling me how I should play the game.

But my point was that the devs aren't just gonna implement something in a game just because "it's cool" for hardcoe fans. It needs to make "game sense" for the majority of the players and it needs to be better than something else they want to add into the game (sometimes, they do have to choose, after all).

I'm not against spellmaking at all, much for the same reasons as you, but I ask myself if it's really needed. If there's no problems with the spells' power - if in fact the lack of spellmaking allows the devs to make the spells even more unique and up to par with the enemies you're fighting - then I welcome it.

Spellmaking can give you a lot of freedom, but it can also limit you in a number of ways. E.g. with regards of the spell effects and just the general variety of spells. Besides, with the ability to wield two different spells at the same time, I don't really see why you'd ever need to create a single spell that does both fire damage and self healing. It's easier that way, sure, but totally redundant in the greater context of things.

Imagine that that one spells damage is maxed at some point, and the dev's didn't provide many powerful alternatives, and it isn't strong enough to combat high level enemies.
Sure, it was a problem in Oblivion, but we should still heed it. Just because they are working on level scaling doesn't mean we might not see the same issue.

A lot of this has to do with disagreeing with Todds design philosophy of removing what is, "superfluous." I don't think spellmaking is, but they might (im guessing they do, but im no mind reader)

I won't be satisfied with premade spells, I don't care how cool some of them are, its such a major loss for mages. And I don't see why we need to settle when they could just implement both. They might have difficulty, but it can be done and be balanced.

It is needed, and it's the hardcoe fans that made this series the success that it is. The minute they begin stripping fun features that make the game more personal because they are deemed "not needed" by more casual players is the minute I stop playing TES. Same goes for character customization. They can simplify the process for console players and players that just want to get straight into the action, but leave options for players that actually value personalizing every detail of their character.

Correct.
The hardcoe fans that made this series the success that it is will continue to buy and support the game, unless a lot of them feel it has 'sold out'. And then they will quit forever.
You can try to appeal to everyone, fit an as large as possible demographic but that inevitably means the actual content is diluted, blander. Its like stripmining. Its short term economics.
The casual gamer will move on to the next big thing thats almost exactly the same. And without anything to differentiate the mass appeal product, next time around they wont be as tempted to come back. Might choose for the cheaper option. Or the next gimmick.
Meanwhile the hardcoe fans are lost.

The best thing Bethesda can do is try to appeal to the hardcoe fans. They will remain loyal, they will draw their friends in, just as I got my friends to read lord of the rings in highschool.
That is long term economy. Establishing a loyal customer base who feels strongly and positively enough about a product to wax lyrically unto others of it. Making people feel it is 'their special little niche' is a large part of that.

All premade spells become similar to Midas Magic thats great for non hardcoe players they will use them at first part of game at some point some one will release thats nice to create something new by self but how if there is no possibility for thats?
Leave spelmaking at last in CS, or it will be nice to have dynamic spellmaking on fly or have classical one incorporated with enchanting.
Leave option for freedom of creativity not hardcode all.

There's just one point I don't get here. You think only hardcoe players will care if it's out?
If anything, REAL hardcoe players will diss it in favor of a system that doesn't encourage making overpowered spells...

Ok, I know this argument isn't THAT god, but still, there's a point in it: not everything removed is meant to "appeal to the casual gamers". I honestly don't see how removing something like that would totally convince a casual to buy the game, as I remember it, it was optional anyways (yes, just like fast travel, but let's not get started on that shall we?). So no, it's definitely NOT to appeal to casual gamers. IT'S TO MAKE THE DAMN SYSTEM WORK PROPERLY!

And please... just because you play an RPG and love it, doesn't mean you're "hardcoe". So stop acting like an ass because you think you're above everyone else. Anyways, games were made for entertainement last time I checked

hardcoe players are not the same as hardcoe fans.

Removing things < fixing things.

Dont get insulted by simple economics. Im not above anyone else, I never said I was or acted like I was. I was explaining how things work.