Thats true, it will be strange if they still not release thats how much people still remember Arena and Daggerfall but Morrowind still popular and thats after nine years, similar story with Neverwinter Nights community work like free Marketing and PR department and rise game sales even after end of official support.
There is much potential hits and bestsellers incoming in 2011 like Risen 2, Witcher 2, Dark Souls thous games are Action-RPG also so Customer need to decide what game need to be purchased first its Competition, so think about your fans.

If they really tried they'd find a lot of better ways to solve it.



<3



Amen! .. Couldn't explain it any better!

It seems people think the magic in Skyrim will be Oblivion/Morrowind minus Spellmaking... And then jump to conclusion it is lacking, or something.

At this point it is hard to say anything about the magic system, but if the loss of spellmaking means more control for me on the fly at the battlefield and more strategy in spell choice (Instead of that best-spell-evar I have to change and think about what I am using; like "Will I keep this shield up, or take up more lightning"-kind of stuff).

But yeah, I am more of a sorcerer guy than a wizard dude, so my opinion is biased.

I for one do realize the improvement in the new system, but its improvements offer little if we don't get spellmaking too.

And it doesn't need to be a trade off between the 2.
We could have the spellmaking menu (they should revamp that) so that it controls all possible affects that spell could perform.

I think of it like the new combat they are adding, it sounds fun, then they tell you they reduced the weapons down to 5 or 6. (a bit of an extreme example)

Yeah, yeah, but please tell me, what are you guys going to use the spellmaking for? (Oh, and I am not against spellmaking in anyway yet, because I don't know about the system enough.)

Improving spells? -No need, spell rise in power with you (As they should, In my rather humble opinion.)

Chance statistics like magnitude and area? -I can see some will need for this, I won't, but several will, certainly. Might come down to balance, or something.

Combine spells? -Only thing I ever really used spellmaking for. But now it seems the system is based around the fact that player can only have two spell effects at his/her disposal at the time, and it'll make things very different. For good or not, I need to see some gameplay. And in my opinion it adds some strategy when one can't use all the effects at the same time, but has to think about what to use.

What won't I use it for!
Maybe I want a flamethrower variant that has a huge area (range), but not much damage. Maybe I'll then create a variant that has extremely high damage, meaning it burns through magicka quickly. Maybe I want a fire rune that sets the enemy on fire for a duration, and another with a large explosion.

Those are just a few example of what we could make if we had spellmaking along with this system.
Sure they might include these as premade spells, but chances aren't likely, because they won't think of it.

That's what it was in Morrowind. It was genius and awesome. With a little work it could have been way more balanced.



Please dont project your own character flaws onto everyone else. This isn't an insult and I apologize if it is interpreted as one.



Actually lava has a higher temprature than the matches you use to lit your cigarette... True story. Wikipedia said so.
However I admit that making your spells on the fly would be awesome. Though there are a million different ways to use fire as a spell. Same for all the other elements. Let's not forgett mark & recall, jump, slowfall, charm... and the list goes on and on.



Exactly! Spellmaking is a BONUS. An EXTRA feature. If you dont like it stay away. Just like I stay away from Fast Travel although I dont like that.

And yes, this isn't an mmorpg.. We play for our own amusemant in this game, not to impress other shadowdwellers with our epix lewt.



Ah yes! Because no one played as a warrior or rogue in Oblivion. Ever. IMO Spellmaking has always been well balanced. It had it's flaws but people in general had a little integrity and played their game in their own way.



Thank you!! Great points!



Spellmaking in itself isn't an exploit, if you used it as an exploit then that is your problem. All the other players shouldn't be punished with restricted gameplay because some people can't control themselves.

At free buffet's things run almost 100% of the time smoothly. You know why? Because people are good by nature. Yes they look out for their own, but that doesn't mean they are constantly looking for ways to [censored] over everyone else.

Yeah, those are the statistic things. And I can see the reasoning for that. I would prefer I system where I could control all those aspects on the fly, but that seems highly unlikely.

But I am going to wait for more info about the subject, and I have to say that I am going to mod me some special versions of the spells anyway. Not a solution, but hey, I am sorry.

I guess a lot of people didn't even remotely get my point about the spellmaking process. Imagine, for a second, that the existence of spellmaking actually was the direct reason why a lot of complex, deep gameplay by means of magical spells, cross-spells, counterspells, and spellbreakers weren't even possible for Oblivion or Morrowind. Not to mention spells that have similar functions but grocely different uses, such as Chameleon versus Invisibility or Feather versus Fortify Strength (that has always been [censored] as hell).

In either case, all I'm saying is that sometimes you just need to let go. You can't just add spellmaking to a game, you need to design a system around it so that it's possible to implement. But if the system you're designing is worse than what you could've had otherwise, then spellmaking is still a good feature but a bad thing to have in a game (because the system behind it suffers from it).

Like I said, I like the new system, but we won't get all the control people want. We might be able to change some of it, but not all.
I really don't see how you would control the area of a variant of a spell, other than custom spells. Of course maybe it could be done, in which case that may be a good thing.
I hate switching spells in combat, and this helps with that, but somethings can't be controlled on the fly.


I understood, but thats a big assumption. You assume that spellmaking is why the spells could be bland.
Thats not the case, they just didn't put in more spell effects.
Can you imagine a system with cool spells, new system, and spellmaking, I can. I can see it working.

I think they took out spellmaking because of the "spreadsheety feel" that some people get, not because its incompatible with the new system

I understand, but thats a big assumption. You assume that spellmaking isn't making the spells worse than they could've been, you also act as if you know anything at all about the new spell effects, which you don't. I've listened to and read all information as of yet. They haven't announced any such list of spell effects yet, so that's a blatant lie from your part.

That was in response to previous games. Previous games didn't put in more spell effects...

That's a terrible assumption because it isn't true. Skyrim's spells and spell making can co-exist. Why can't I have a spell that is fire + burden? Then I could shoot that as a cone, slowing and burning everything, or cast it as a rune, slowing and burning enemies that step on it. What about a spell that heals and restores attributes? I could blast that around in a nasty battle to help my allies.

I don't seem to understand why those two systems have to be mutually exclusive. They aren't, and they shouldn't be. In fact, they perfectly COMPLIMENT each other.

Erm...you're kinda contradicting yourself. Look down.


If it's always been so well balanced...how could it be way more balanced with more work?


Spellmaking, if used to its upmost potential is an exploit. You can't tell me a near novice whom can make 100 charm for 1 second isn't an exploit. Now, not in your mind...but your character's mind...if they could use a charm spell of that calliber for next to nothing they wouldn't hessitate. They'd go around charming everyone untill they're rich beyond their wildest dreams. If the character could cast god spells, the character would want to with very few exceptions. With TES being an action rpg, we have to look through the eyes of the character. If you don't then you're not syncing with your character, and that leads to damage the rpg experience.

I've played a mage who doesn't use god spells. I have, and I liked it. Know what I'd like better? A game where the spell making system doesn't even allow the god spells to be made in the first place till you're a master at that type of spells. A character, who chooses not to use godspell exploits, is having that rpg element forced upon it. I would much rather play a character who chooses not to use strong spells by his own choice, instead of me as the player having to play that type of character in order to not abuse the system.

In an rpg like TES, an rpg playstyle should not be forced upon someone. I want to play by the rules and not use exploits, but my character wants to be as strong as they can be. Who should I listen to if the game is an rpg? Myself or the character I'm suppose to be playing?

Irregardless. If spellmaking is removed this means that a huge chunck of customisation is removed.
85 possible learnable spells < the thousands of possible useful spells that spellmaking allows.
Any pre set path is by definition not as interesting as one I explore myself.

Spell making removed cannot mean anything else than a bad thing. I dont care about how cool things look. I care about options, about replayability. A game I spent that much money on I should not be unreasonable in expecting it will give me replay value.
Removing spellmaking = removing content = removing replayability.
I dont think this is anything other than a fact.

It's opinion...

I don't mind. I like chaining spells & I liked spellmaking. My thinking is the way the new system makes spellmaking difficult. For example a fire&burden spell: A fire spell, by themselves can be used in different ways dependent upon how you cast it. Burden would logically work in different ways too. The conflict occurs when you use fire&burden at same time. Say you hold down the spell attack, a normal fire spell would become a flamethrower, but what would burden do? The effects of spells more than likely clash. BGS said they worked on it, they clearly ran into trouble implementing it.

I don't think BGS intents to ostracize their fan base, why would they. They wanted to try something new, it clashed with how they usually did things. svcks, I get it, but there it is.

Great stuff! . I completely agree that it is a fun outlet for player creativity!



If this trend continues then before we know it we'll loose the TES CS.



Let's not get way off track discussing esoteric stuff here. Your super power anology makes no sense in regards to spellmaking.
Point is that the character becomes more alive when he can use magic as he pleases instead of casting recipes at people.



Some people might view fortify actobatics for 8, or even 3 sec as an exploit for jumping far.. But if you think about it in an RPG sense, where the mage channels magic to his feet then pushes off the ground to make a huge leap it makes all the sense in the world.. His acrobatic skills wont be awesome when he lands.. Auto balance - broken legs.



Good idea! Not all mages have plundered every dungeon in entire skyrim collecting raw materials have they? Many can't even kill a Golden Saint. If you can collect 10 grand soul stones filed with golden saint souls then doesn't it make sense that you should be able to make something, at least, a LITTLE more powerful than the the other mages of the guild?



You've got a LOT of great points! Well worth a re-read for everyone.

Imagine all the strategic possibilities of light spell, vs nighteye, burden, etc.
And as warriors use shields and rogues dodge, mages put up a shield when they SEE the spell approaching. If they are fast enough to manage doing so.

What's more impressive? A dude walking around burning mana constantly by having a fire ressist shield up at all times, or the mage who notices a huge wall of fire headed his way and pop's a fire shield just as the inferno hits him then stops wasting his mana once it's gone?



Read the previous quote, sit still and think of all the possibilities here. Not just for the 3 or 4 spells mentioned but for all the spelleffects ingame! .. THIS is what TES is all about.



Same as above.



It makes all the "Game sense" in the world since it's been in ALL previous games. If water suddenly dissapeared from this world it woulden't make a lot of sense now would it? . A little extreme example but you get the point. (Say we remove argonians.. Game sense? Nope.)



EXACTLY!!! . What will be the point of getting past level, say 30? If all your spells are still level 25? . Or when your 40 with 25 level spells fighting level 40 monsters..
It doesn't matter how long you charge that fireball spell, it's just gonna tickle that huge aligator munching your face off..

I could see this being a problem, but not enough to remove spellmaking.
Only allow spells of either similar effects, or single effects.
Thats enough customization for some, it still removes posibilities, but its better than nothing.

Or maybe the effects become restricted to what they have in common, or the effects are restricted to the first effect.
So a fire & burden spell would have the effects of a fire spell, but tack burnden on too.

There are alternative ways than scrap the system. I sure hope Bethesda is looking for alternative solutions, and despite my pessimism I think they are.

I can't believe they're removing spellmaking and yet adding smithing, woodcutting, and farming. They're turning Skyrim into a pimped-out Runescape.

I like to believe they are looking (I'm not a pessimist).

Your idea sounds plausible though, making one a effect dynamic and additional effects static. That would make a lot of sense, I guess we can hold out some hope this kind of spellmaking will make a appearance.

Because, for all we know, both the Fire and Burden spells might have secondary and tertiary effects, based on how they are cast (in two hands, for instance) that could potentially be mutually exclusive. Spells no longer have just 1 effect from 1 way of casting it.

Imagine that Fire has 5 effects, for instance (flamethrower, firebolt, fireball, fireblast, fire rune) depending on how you cast it, what your target is and how much you charge it up. All the effects have actually been confirmed, more or less. Likewise, imagine Burden having a similar array of maybe 2-3 effects depending on how you cast that.

Now imagine having to design a separate interaction for each of the 15 (5*3) possible ways to cast that single spell. If there was a third effect possible, say Frost spell with 5 separate effects, then the number of possible casting methods would be 45 (5*3*5) unless I'm brainfarting and the number is actually a lot higher.

If you can find a way to make the spell effect with the most amount of outcomes work well with the spell effect with the second most amount of outcomes - combined - then feel free to tell us all about it in a separate thread. We would greatly appreciate your input.

As of yet, we know nothing about the spell system for Skyrim. So neither of us are in a position to speak about whether the removal of spellmaking is good or bad. The difference between you and me is that I'm not doing that - I'm simply stating possibilities. You're the one who thinks that I'm assuming anything and, by that action, you're showing how biased you yourself are.

Yeah, whenever I talk about spellmaking (which is a lot, my main concern) I try and find alternatives, because there are alternatives.
Except when I try to make a thread pertaining to alternatives, it turns into a flame war about spellmaking being bad.

They could even have "dynamic spells" which are premade, but allow spellmaking of "traditional" spells as well. Not very cool, but its a possibility.

I'd say the one that makes the most sense to me is having a "primary effect" which controls its forms, in a fire & burden spell its fire. (determined by first effect chosen?)
So we would have a spell that could take all of fires forms, flamethrower, fireball, fire rune trap, etc. But it would have the secondary effects, burden in this case, added in.

Or does someone have something better?

That doesn't mean it can't be resolved. I can think of a reasonable behavior. When the fire+burden spell is being cast in flamethrower mode, enemies are burdened as long as they are in contact with the flames of the flamethrower.

If it's too difficult to combine offensive spells, that's still no excuse to not implement spell combination for defensive/on-self spells.

Did you study marketing or sales or something? This is exactly what happens.
Often new owners take over a business then cut down on expenses that the regular costumers value.
Say that the restaurant has an awesome pizza with cheese imported from france. New owner takes over and decides to get the cheap cheese from next door instead.
Business goes south.
"Let's market to the unthinking masses" is a tempting idea.. But just like you explained. It never works.. Exept for WoW.



*Example of a reality that's filled with limiting beliefs*



*Example of a reality filled with an abundance of ideas*

Look for solutions and not at the problem. Etc etc. Sound familiar to anyone?



Awesome ideas of great uses!



Replayability is the reason I still play Morrowind. There's not an excess of shiney lights that gets me coming back.

There is an easy way to fix the mutually exclusive effects problem. If Fire Damage can do Projectile, Spray, Rune, or Touch and Burden can do Projectile, Rune, and Touch, then Fire + Burden can only do the spell effects that both of them can do. Also, if an effect is harmful (Fire Damage), it shouldn't be mixable with a helpful effect (Restore Health). That mainly keeps people from abusing the system and keeps it from being removed.