Thank you for contributing with positive value.

Maybe I have a different opinion because I never really play mage characters but by removing the spell making it seems to add more strategy to that form of combat by making you choose which spells suit the situation instead of making your own spell that will simply obliterate anything. I'm sure there will be powerful spells at later levels anyway so I don't see what the big fuss is.

.... First off DLC's are not "must haves" . You can CHOOSE to purchase them, or not..

Oblivion had powerful spells. They all svcked.
The premade spells in Oblivion were bland, boring, not fun. Weak fireball was my favorite premade offensive spell in Oblivion, because it suited its purpose better than the more powerful premade spells.
Morrowind had some more unique premade spells, which I liked and used.

Premade spells aren't that great, and forcing those bad spells on mages severely limits our (my) experience. Especially when we were used to such freedom before.

How would you feel if bethesda took away all of your swords and maces and axes and replaced them with 2 each, good and bad.
We should get more variation, not less each game. Oblivions number of weapons was pathetic, but how would you feel if that was reduced down to a handful?

(no hostility or ill temper intended, just an honest question)

Oblivion had powerful spells. They all svcked.
The premade spells in Oblivion were bland, boring, not fun. Weak fireball was my favorite premade offensive spell in Oblivion, because it suited its purpose better than the more powerful premade spells.
Morrowind had some more unique premade spells, which I liked and used.

Premade spells aren't that great, and forcing those bad spells on mages severely limits our (my) experience. Especially when we were used to such freedom before.

How would you feel if bethesda took away all of your swords and maces and axes and replaced them with 2 each, good and bad.
We should get more variation, not less each game. Oblivions number of weapons was pathetic, but how would you feel if that was reduced down to a handful?

(no hostility or ill temper intended, just an honest question)

Well I really want to see how new magic system will be implemented, if dynamic spell weaving and spell combination will make mage experience more rich and in touch with mystical forces of Magic more then in classical magic system thats will be Brilliant Awesome.

For example before we need to have different spells of different magnitude and range in spellbook now we can have spell charging like in this mod
Chargeable Spells
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=27746
When actual magnitude of spell or range of area effect can changed dynamically in game thats will simulate gathering of mystical powers and concentration of mage to control such powers, thats greatly improve roleplay of mage since no need different spells where difference between them only in basic parameters like range duration and magnitude (M D R) this spells can be created ingame on fly with chargeable magic out of just one spell.
So no need to have a large set of base spells for different area effect sizes, self and touch thats will clutter spellbook
and have only difference in basic parameters like (M D R).

How it can be balanced?
By caps in parameters of spell (M D R), thats caps can be affected by skills and perks or by parameters of %PCname like Magicka and Fatigue.
so thats limit player from creating of unbalanced spells since there can be cap for minimum and maximum in (M D R) there can also be applied spell success thats depend on skill level, charge of spell, wearing armor and actual fatigue of Mage nice to see some hardcoe features like in this mod
Audacious Magery
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25844 so magic can be actual wild mystical and unstable force.

But thats will be handle only pure spells, for creating spell with additional effects need to have spellmaking or simulate spell effect blending ingame
how thats can be done?
Well for first one it creating spell in CS, for second one its adding side effects to main one effect of spell, for example this old one mod for Oblivion
Phisic Magic Effect
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=5016
or more advanced version in Deadly Reflex and Supreme Magicka
For third one there can be ability to equip two different spells on your left and right hand in one time so thats also expand spell combinations.
For fourth one there can be perks in magic skills thats can add additional effects to spell, for example weakness to elemental damage of fire in destruction perks tree
at next level it can increase in power, such perk can be added to all elemental weaknesses investing all types perks eventually will open way to weakness to magic perk and additional spell effect.

As you can see most of predictable features from Skyrim magic system already was in Oblivion with mods.
If new magic system will be flawed, there still CS so we can mode magic system to be better, well if need even classical spellmaking can be simulated via scripts at some stage of Skyrim modding.
Custom spells like novice summon dragon spells can be done with CS, but they are mods so completely optional so they isn't gamebreaking since we cant create such spells in game.


For example Illusion skill level can affect magnitude of frenzy spell (actual level of enemy), charged time and skill cap can affect duration and range, some perks can expand (M D R) caps greater.
Heal on touch can be heal on self but with altered target

Quote from mod above and yes thats was dynamically done in game, charging applied to this spells also.

Maybe but remember this is not OB, this is Skyrim I'm sure they learned from their mistakes of boring useless spells if the are going ahead and removing spellmaking. As you say they had good ones in MW why can't they do the same for Skyrim? Comparing swords and maces to magic isn't really fair because they are each just one form of combat, with spells how many offensive spells do you get under destruction? When you choose maces you are only good with maces when you fight with destruction magic you get several options. Not to mention other spells to boost combat like paralyze and invisibility and many more.
I felt there was plenty of weapons in OB too except for marksman we kind of got screwed with only bows so yeah I know what it feels like but I don't think it's as bad as you paint it. Marksmen had 99% of their weapons taken away, all that's getting taken from magic is customization (at least I haven't heard of any spells removed specifically).

To me it doesn't seems like it is removed solely for the purpose of balancing, though it may have played a big role. Both other forms of combat have be modified to make them more strategic in implementation rather than just hack n' slash like OB, so why wouldn't magic get the same treatment. That's why I think they removed it, for strategy, so you choose spells to fit the situation rather then *enter combat* *cast one uber spell* *end combat* its just not the style they are going for in this game. Like I said powerful spells will definitely be available when appropriate anyway.

edit:no hostility intended on my end either I just enjoy a good debate

Maybe but remember this is not OB, this is Skyrim I'm sure they learned from their mistakes of boring useless spells if the are going ahead and removing spellmaking. As you say they had good ones in MW why can't they do the same for Skyrim? Comparing swords and maces to magic isn't really fair because they are each just one form of combat, with spells how many offensive spells do you get under destruction? When you choose maces you are only good with maces when you fight with destruction magic you get several options. Not to mention other spells to boost combat like paralyze and invisibility and many more.
I felt there was plenty of weapons in OB too except for marksman we kind of got screwed with only bows so yeah I know what it feels like but I don't think it's as bad as you paint it.

To me it doesn't seems like it is removed solely for the purpose of balancing though it may have played a big role. Both other forms of combat have be modified to make them more strategic in implementation rather than just hack n' slash like OB, so why wouldn't magic get the same treatment. That's why I think they removed it for strategy, so you choose spells to fit the situation rather then *enter combat* *cast one uber spell* *end combat* its just not the style they are going for in this game. Like I said powerful spells will definitely be available when appropriate anyway.

edit:no hostility intended on my end either I just enjoy a good debate

I actually made spells because I prefered having my own spell rather than the standard. I didn't just create broken spells, I made spells for fun.
In fact my favorite fireball spell was rather weak, but it was my own.

Not everyone used enchanting in Morrowind or Oblivion to break the game, people need to quit assuming everyone did those things and they need to be removed...

There should be a way to combine spells in that you cast both spells at once, but the slider stuff is unnecessary.

But removing the number of weapons is exactly like removing spellmaking. Its reducing possibilities for combat, and restricting players.
When I chose weapons I did it for a few reasons, there were good weapons and ugly weapons. I'd use an iron longsword if it looked better than the deadric one.
So I choose weapons based on appearence, same goes for armor, as well as usefulness. Same goes for spells. I choose cool ones because they are cool, I didn't just use spells with 100% weakness to magicka for 5 seconds and 300 pts damage health.

This point is customization is important to us, as is most others. Limiting my options is limiting my customization, as it limits my characters uniqueness.
And I won't feel like a powerful mage using spells bought at some guild.
There is the arguement that being a good mage doesn't mean he knows anything about spellmaking, which is true. However, any good warrior learns to maintain his weapon. And extremely good swordsmen would sometimes learn swordsmithing to better maintain their weapons, and craft new swords if necessary.

Anyway the point is it reduces our customization, and it makes playing a powerful mage difficult because you won't "feel" like a powerful mage. So mighty and powerful, but that novice at the magic shop taught it to me?

The benefits of removing spellmaking hardly outweigh the negative implications.

Yes often I made my own version of standard spells just to get the name right. If I want invisibility I look under I not under G for ghostwalk.
Also one of the restore attribute spells was missing with knights of the nine.
This in addition to the other missing configurations.

Only real exploit in Oblivion and Morrowind was the fortify 100 for 1 second spells, had time run while in dialoge, repair and shop modus this would not be possible, a fortify jump or acrobatic in 5 seconds is not an exploit as the action just take a couple of seconds.

But removing the number of weapons is exactly like removing spellmaking. Its reducing possibilities for combat, and restricting players.
When I chose weapons I did it for a few reasons, there were good weapons and ugly weapons. I'd use an iron longsword if it looked better than the deadric one.
So I choose weapons based on appearence, same goes for armor, as well as usefulness. Same goes for spells. I choose cool ones because they are cool, I didn't just use spells with 100% weakness to magicka for 5 seconds and 300 pts damage health.

This point is customization is important to us, as is most others. Limiting my options is limiting my customization, as it limits my characters uniqueness.
And I won't feel like a powerful mage using spells bought at some guild.
There is the arguement that being a good mage doesn't mean he knows anything about spellmaking, which is true. However, any good warrior learns to maintain his weapon. And extremely good swordsmen would sometimes learn swordsmithing to better maintain their weapons, and craft new swords if necessary.

Anyway the point is it reduces our customization, and it makes playing a powerful mage difficult because you won't "feel" like a powerful mage. So mighty and powerful, but that novice at the magic shop taught it to me?

The benefits of removing spellmaking hardly outweigh the negative implications.

Or make some spells a lot harder to get. In Morrowind there were some spells I never bought because they were so expensive, I sure didn't abuse the charm spell then.

But a lot of those "duration 2 seconds" spells can be balanced now that conversations, and maybe menus, are in real time.

If they removed it for balancing purposes I can't really be mad.
However imagine you had weapons- and armorcrafting, then they removed it. Wouldn't that be a major loss?

Yes you might use weapon craft to make a uber weapon that kills everyone however it's more likely that you would make a cool personal weapon.
Same goes for armor.

But spellmaking isn't like horse armor, houses or quests. It's a pretty big feature, which would be strange to add as DLC content. All previous TES games had it. IMO either they should add it to the base game or they shouldn't add it at all.

I wouldn't go as far as to say removing the number of weapons is exactly like removing spellmaking, you still have all your individual spells, just not the customization and not to mention the different ways of wielding spells now, though I see that it is similar in that you have less options than before.
Not everyone chooses things based on how cool they appear though and many would opt for the 100% weakness to magicka for 5 seconds and 300 pts damage health (which is their choice not saying there is anything wrong with that) which doesn't allow for the more strategic and visceral combat style BGS seems to want, it was clearly a decision on their part to make it fit the game, and obviously not to please everyone. But it just wouldn't make sense if both other forms were strategic and magic was not, it just wouldn't fit the game.

Yes it has been with us since arena.
http://www.svatopluk.com/arena/manual/magic.stm
Read an cry, it's more advanced than the one in Oblivion and Morrowind as it has effect*level. Daggerfall also had it with more spell effects but the wall and floor stuff is gone because of dungeon design.

And it would be pretty hopeless to add as a dlc as it would require new menus who would require changes in the Skyrim.exe file.

What I would be satisfied with, would be spellmaking but some spell effects not being capable of being combined.
Like fire and frost, because it should make water, and its difficult to explain.

But more balancing would not allowing weakness to magic to be combined into other spells. That would force you to wield it in a second hand, then cast the primary spell.
It would help with that issue.

Another way would be to make spell effects like that difficult to get, or expensive to use. Maybe for weakness to magic as its magnitude increases, its cost increases exponentially. That way it becomes harder to achieve it at high percentages.

If they are removing it for the combat they want, they are just being lazy. There are other ways to balance it and still get what they want.

I see that balancing it more could do alot of good but it just isn't the direction they took :shrug: I guess there's nothing to do but see how it all works out, like I said the decision obviously wasn't made to please everyone, and it definitely wasn't taken lightly, I'm sure they didn't sit down and say hmm we could balance it or we can just be lazy and remove it so yeah lets just be lazy.
And I'm not trying to say they did remove it because of combat that was just drawing conclusions on my part because of other changes I have seen.

The current assumption for the reduced armor slots in Oblivion is to better balance enchanting (at least from what I know)
And there were better ways to balance it. I have a hard time believing that they realize how serious it is to many people. Just as im sure if they realized how much people would complain about armor slots in Oblivion they would have found a better way.

Eitherway I don't think they reviewed all options, and im sure they have one or two guys there trying very hard to make it work with the new system, but I doubt greatly all of the devs care about it much. Todd in general seemed very displeased about it when he talked about it.

You know, there's nothing telling that your spells don't get stronger as you level up.
It would greatly balance as it wouldactually DENY the need for spellmaking.
Now of course it wouldn't allow for combinations, but oh well...

So self made spells are either useless or exploits?
Interesting: one of my favourite two spells is command humanoid/ creature level 25 in 8 seconds on target. Frenzy over a large area but pretty short duration is another useful one, you need a large area as unaffected enemies will prefer to attack you an 4-6 second duration is long enough as you can simply cast again.

Please note that both command and frenzy does not have default spells who work on high level enemies only level 9 as expert.
Chameleon spell has maximum effect 75%, makes no sense as you can reach 100% far easier with potions. (yes chameleon 100% is overpowered but it’s not an issue here.)

Restoration, no restore health 50 in 1 second, a master restore spell restores 30 in 6 seconds who is pretty pointless, either restore as much as possible in 1 second, or do a long term low level heal as a self made potion.

Weakness to poison 100% on target is also nice, very useful for killing liches as a pure mage with weakness to magic.
Max weakness effect is 25%.

In short the supplied spells in Oblivion has gaping holes leaving illusion broken without the spellmaker. Yes the default spells work well enough for utility magic but not for a pure mage.

In short I doubt a pure mage will be playable without any sort of spellmaker, no it will not ruin Skyrim as pure mages was pretty unplayable in Morrowind without the fortify intelligence potion exploit and nobody will say it was a bad game