YES!!!!! We need it 110% i loved Morrowind's spell making it made my um well.... you know use your imagination.

Although I understand your sentiments on this issue, realize that it would be a foolhardy thing to have spellmaking. In Oblivion all I ever did as a mage was work in the mages guild, get to the arcane university, and make a spell of each element with the highest damage for one second. If i could handle that anyway. Basically what I'm saying is that spellmaking is waaaaaaaay to easy to exploit.

I don't see the logic in removing spell making but having enchanting (which is basically spell making attached to weapons)... Unless enchanting is even weaker than it used to be and you just stick spell effects on an item and they auto-scale or something weird.

Yeah, that would piss me off something fierce.

When I first heard that spellmaking might be out, I seriously teared up.
It is the single defining aspect of elder scrolls game that makes me love them.

Other games are so lame in this, there is no difference between magic or psi powers or whatever they call em.
Pre-made, static spells that if you press x is area and press a for streaming is just.. terrible.
There is absolutely no feel of being a mage. You acquire powers and then simply spam a button.
There is no thought, no creativity, no freedom in it.

So what if it feels 'spread sheety'?
I happen to like that. I like being able to cast a 1 pt fire spell or a 100 pt shock spell, or both combined if it tickles my fancy.
I like twiddling about on the 'spread sheet'. That is what makes me feel a mage working with the arcane.
Not some arbitrary ability that you 'unlock' on defeating a boss. Thats shoot-em-up.

With magic, I want to do what I want, when I want it.
Im a mage who knows certain effects, and customises those into spells that fit my degree of knowledge and personality.

Using the same pre-set spells that every NPC can use is not magical. Only in name. Might as well be called psi-power or a mutant ability or whatever.
There is no difference then between a sword bow or spell, just different ways of attacking with the same old boring pre-made stuff.

Im not even going to adress the comments of 'making spells that are game breaking'
This has been adressed, explained, debunked and refuted ad nauseum and Im tired of explaining to people the difference between a shooter and an elder scrolls RPG.

I really am hoping for a good enchanting and magic system.
More like Morrowind, less stunted than Oblivion and fully customisable.

Anything less will be a sheer dissapointment and very close to a deal-breaker.

No we don't.

No they could increased cost and reduced effect probably also made the casting time on enchanted item similar to spells, part of the overpowering was that you could easy use an enchanted item 5 times a second.

What they should do is tie spellmaking down to a skill, like enchanting. Making spells via scrolls would hold the overpowered-ness down a little at least. Spellmaking needs to be fixed, there's no getting around it. It has way to many exploits. A character shouldn't have to close their eyes and pretend not to see them. I hope they find a way to work it in, but if the can't I can see why it turns out like that. It'll be a kill joy for sure, but spellmaking should try to fit into the world around it instead of standing out so much.

I like the new system ALOT better thabn the old one. And please don't try putting you own RP story for reasons why you enjoyed spellmaking because we all know that it was all that same ball flying at your enemy just in different colors and the only reaosn behind spellmaking in the first place was to make a god killing spell or a spell that mad ethe game easier. The new system seems alot more inventive and if you ask me oblivion had the exact same 'do X and X for max dmg' crap.'

In short

New system = win

Wait, can anyone give me a link to where EXACTLY it was atated that it was OFFICIALLY removed?

And anyways, even if it is... I think it'll actually make being a mage a BETTER experience anyways.
I mean, come on, you're a MAGE! You really need to have some pre-made spells? EVEN ONES YOU MADE YOURSELF ARE "PRE-MADE" BTW! Why not just USE the effect you want, one the fly? THAT'S A MAGE!

And quite frankly, I'm pretty sure if they remove spell-making they'll balance it otherwise. Like, you know, spells sold in town not being totally svckish?

And maybe they actually level with you!

Or maybe they always make the same damage or something. I mean, fire is fire afterall. once it's hot enough to be fire, even 1000 degrees more don't make a difference: it burns you, it dries up your nerves and disintegrates every muscle in your body. That's FIRE. I never heard of someone who was one fire, survived it, and thanked god that the fire wasn't hotter...


I'd say, whatever they do, instead of just saying "hell no!" why not just try to imagine how you'll manage without it, huh? 'Cause quite frankly... I'm pretty sure they removed it. get over it

I think he's wrong about charging up fireballs. For one thing, holding down the cast button creates a flamethrower effect - how can we charge up our fireballs if the most intuitive control option is already taken? I think that as we level up our magic schools, the corresponding spells get stronger. In Oblivion, the spells simply cost less magicka as you levelled up your magic skills.

I'm fine with skill level determining a particular spell effect's power. I'd simply like a way to combine spells (especially beneficial cast-on-self spells) for convenience. However, it's possible that the spell-switching interface is so convenient now that spell combinations would be unnecessary. Even so, it's good to have options, and I doubt it's hard to implement combined spells. After all, they did it in previous games.

no he is right if you equip the same spell to both hands you can charge it up for a bigger effect

This is wrong. A hotter fire would burn you faster. 1000 degrees would make the difference between "stop, drop and roll" and melting through your armor and burning a huge hole in your chest instantly.

Some of the arguments you guys are giving don't make much sense.

You can't blame spellmaking for everything that was wrong with how magic itself worked in Morrowind and Oblivion. If anything, it provided characters that utilized magic with tools that would help them at.. well, any level. Unless the developers plan on adding spells for every magnitude and duration available (assuming those attributes remain unchanged and present in the new system), those who practice magic are still going to be limited (which, in a role-playing game, doesn't make sense) in what they can and cannot do. It also gives the illusion that you're playing a pre-assembled game where, no matter how high you climb in skills or level, your character is forever unable to truly master magic. In an RPG, that hurts. It hurts a lot.

You also can't say spellmaking was a game-breaking feature. Sure, it allowed players to create godly spells.. but that was their choice. You weren't forced to make insane AoEs or flawless Charm spells, were you? No. This is a role-playing game. If you want to play legit, you can play legit. If you succumb to using bugs, glitches, exploits, that's you're choice -- this isn't an MMORPG. Your actions affect you, and only you. By taking their time to make sure you have to be legit, Bethesda is wasting time that could be better spent on crafting new and exciting features that everyone can (and most likely will) choose to enjoy (such as a better spellmaking system -- one that compliments the new magic system, as well as gives the feeling that you're actually wielding magic that's been tailored to your character).

I mean.. if you truly want to make those kinds of spells, you will find a way to. Given that so many people want spellmaking in Skyrim, I don't see why Bethesda wouldn't add it in some way, shape, or form (because excluding it isn't going to stop players who really want to cheat from cheating).

If you're hungry, and the only thing on the table is shrimp, you're gonna eat the shrimp. You can't just ignore the shrimp if you don't like the shrimp, because the only food on the table is the shrimp.

If you wanted to hold your own in a fight, you needed the god spells. It's foolish not to use the best weapon you can. People who fight with swords are going to use the daedric swords or the best sword they can get their hand on. They couldn't hold themselves to the rusty iron sword if they felt it was cool looking, because that would be crazy to try and fight at higher levels with that weapon.

The "if you don't like it don't use it" agruement doesnt work. The game shouldn't be made so that you can...no, so you have to do that.

I hope they put spellmaking in. But it needs to be fixed. Game abuses shouldn't just be left in because people will find a way around them. That's silly, broken things should be fixed, and spellmaking was broken. It needs work, there's no getting around it. It was a really cool feature, but it was to easy to bend and twist out of shape. A near novice could charm a shop keeper out of all their goods for dirt cheep. Why should that be left in?

Sure, someone with 100 illusion should be able to twist peoples thoughts to their own will. But a near novice?

I'm mainly concerned with how the dual-handed system will work. Can I equip "Electrocute" in one hand and "Balls of Fire" in the other? Can I cast both at once for Lightning Fire glory?

Along those lines, I'd love to see special effects emerge when dual-equipping the same spell. For example, can my Magic Missiles gain additional effects like homing or "Daze for 1 second"? That would be a dream, as I plan to largely play through as a Mage.

I think dual equipping the same spell gives it a flamethrower effect but homing and a daze effect are possibilities for perks I guess.

I entirely agree.

The poster who said no interesting spells not available for purchase could be made obviously did not use the feature to its full capacity, or else approached it with a limited imagination.

I created spells which both paralyzed whilst electrocuting, powerful charm spells that lasted MUCH longer than a second, opening spells for very hard locks, which I did not find in my travels, only up to hard locks. . . there was A LOT that could be done, and I hope that the devs either return the feature, which I too took as a manifestation of my deep arcane knowledge and understanding, or else that they have come up with every possible spell combination. I think without the spell making you will feel less unique. My ability to creates special spells set me above the ordinary mages in the game.

That is a horrible anology. A more apt one would be to say if you are invited to a free buffet, there will be some people who try to get over by eating as much of they can of the most expensive food offered. But not eveyone will do that. Indeed, many people will stick with the food they like best. Spell making offered more options not less, and a player who wishes to avoid using the advantages it offered but "could not resist them" should hold their own lack of self-discipline at fault, not blame the game for giving them leeway.

I'm all for options, and I hope they include spellmaking, but exploits shouldn't be left in the game because they can just be ignored. That's just being lazy. There can be advantages, but you should have to work extremely hard to get to them.

An even better anology would be high end shrimp and low end shrimp at the same free buffet. If you want to eat shrimp, and you can have what you want...who's going to choose the low end shrimp?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB9g3CRmTok&t=1m42s I believe
Well caps need to eliminate long charging time on some spells for example Novice in destruction have fireball spell,
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv7WeZmj2G0&t=2m46s then flame bolt-arrow spell and use both hands of caster, fire ball have explode target contact with stagger or thrown and area of effect abilities)
Fireball with starting power 10 and charge up to 30 range of spell 3( R ), cost 25( C ) Apprentice 30 to 70 (R4C50) Journeyman 70 to 120(R5C100) and so on, so Journeyman no need to spend much time to charge spell from novice 10 to journeyman 70 since Journeyman already mastered this level, I think maximum cap of spell can be overcharged (nice to see some changes in FX of spell of charged spell thats will show player Danger of such powers) if %PCname have enough Fatigue and Magicka reserves (fortified by some buff or tactically need now to have more powerful spell right now) since charging will drain Magicka with different rates according to power of spell player can manage their magical reserves for better tactics in combat uncharged fireball will do his minimum caped damage anyways but ability to make double or triple it with charging will be very charming for player

Another thing its will make more difference between barbarian-warrior who found in tomb and wear artifact ring enchanted fortify Magicka 1000 and learn Fire Ball spell from local magic shop and Member of Mage Guild who actually spend half of his life to study magic, warrior can cast thats spell with novice level and use his magical reserves for charge spell more, he feel how such powers drain fatigue from him and see how unstable Fire Ball become in his hand, his hands tremble those heavy iron gauntlets make his fingers moves unagile and slow he need release such devastating powers right now or they will become uncontrollable if he continue to charge spell furtherer fireball ultimately will explode at his face or miscasted in some another way (http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25844 has many examples so there can be not only Morrowind like fizzle) so he decide cast it right now at target, fire ball do 99 damage, Magicka draining cost was 380, around he spend more of his fatigue at cast then skillful mage but he is Warrior and have high Endurance attributes so Fatigue it not problem for him, but also he spend more time at casting of spell since he need to form fireball and charge it from 10 to 99

And now we take example of skillful Apprentice of Mage Guild, he wear light spider silk gloves enchanted to enhance his magic skills in destruction enough to reach journeyman level he has mage guild training thats enhance his Will attribute so have enough Fatigue to try cast Fire Ball spell, he try thats many times and know how feel thats powers in hands so he also decide to charge his fire ball spell more besides he curios about thats new enchanted gloves and want to know how much more powerful they make him, he start at journeyman level of fire ball so if he cast it right now after forming it up minimum cap of damage already be at 70 he use his Magicka reserves to charge spell more, since there is no thing thats will his hands unagile (or even thats an elf or khajiit girl who more agile then bulky nord warrior) Apprentice can charge spell furtherer more and eventually release charged fire ball damage was 110 since spell was charged at journeyman level and cost 280 since our mage have Apprentice training in Destruction.
But wait our mage has some nice perks what he discover during of study of destruction magic like
Ignite
perk thats add damage overtime to all fire element spells,
Searing flames perk
add weakness to fire to fire based spells
Burning pain
Burning enemy stagger in pain more frequently, destruction magic can bring pain in life not only to enemies but for caster also study this allow mage found ways bring more Pain to enemies
So they can also be applied to casted spell as additional side effects

Thats situation fit to lore very well since in TES different organizations thats provide special training and have special facilities like Battlespire for battlemages and spellswords or Arcane University and local mage guilds for mages of different schools, there also other organizations thats can train skills, cell spells and magic items, provide some arcane services.
Organizations like temples (thats can train restoration, cure disease) or covens of witches, don't forget about Daedra Worshipers and Necromancers also, they all can provide quests, services, train skills and teach spells.
So battle mages actually can have special training thats will decrease penalties for casting in armors but also can provide unique perks like channeling spells into weapons without enchanting.

Wrong on all counts Im afraid.
I dont give a flying hoot about how a spell looks I care for what it does.

Nope, the only reason for spellmaking isnt god spells. Never used em. Did have ages of fun with spellmaking though.
It adds replayability, because things not being the same second time round = a good thing.

The new system is absolutely not more inventive. Thats a silly thing to say.
The sheer number of possible spells in Oblivion, even though magic was stunted compared to Morrowind and Daggerfall, is orders of magnitude greater than pre-made spells can ever be. This is a plain fact.

Removing spellmaking removes customisation, it removes options. It stunts roleplaying and opens up the way for uber mainstream lameness.
Anything that removes options in a roleplaying game and makes the game more 'streamlined'
is by definition a bad thing.

How can your opinion on how good one system is over another be plain fact?

Its not an opinion. Its a fact.
The number of possible spells in Oblivion has been calculated once in a thread I cant find anymore and I dont want to do the math myself atm but..
Its millions upon millions.

In this phase space of possible spells the number of actually useful spells is a lot smaller. But since we are talking such a huge phase space, its still immense. Lets say conservatively a couple of thousand out of the millions.

A couple of thousand > 85.
Therefore the choice, the options, the freedom of spellmaking is by definition greater than that of pre-made spells.

Ah, yes, I misread. Doesn't make it better, though. Just makes the number of possibilities larger. It's the same with the dungeons. You can have 2 hundred something of Oblivions repetitive dungeons or 130 of what will supposedly be much more imaginative and unique dungeons in Skyrim. Having more doesn't make it better. Quality over quantity. Quality of options doesn't equal inventiveness either. Would it be orders of magnitude more inventive if they added another hundred to the range of the sliders for the Oblivion spells? From the sound of it, the actual way spells work will be far more varied, and that is what I would consider more inventive, rather than just changing basic stats.

More does not always equal better.
But its about choice here, about roleplaying, about being a mage.

I want to fiddle about with spellmaking. I want to make a spell just for flame atronarchs or a spell just for nuisance creatures like rats or mudcrabs.
Magic in elder scrolls is all about fiddling with rp stats. You can boost or damage stats, you can take advantage of elemental weaknesses, you can manipulate the game world.
Pre made spells, in order to have any variety and spice, will need to level with you.
I abhor games where I have one fire spell, and if I hold the button longer, its more powerful.
That is not being a mage.

The actual way spells work can simply not be more varied if variety is one of the things removed, and spellmaking = variety.